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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Introducing Microsoft Surface - Windows 8 first tablet and a full Microsoft hardware/software solution!

 

Will you buy one if the RT is ~$500 and Pro is ~$900

yes 115 52.27%
 
no 79 35.91%
 
see resultz 23 10.45%
 
Total:217
S.T.A.G.E. said:
SamuelRSmith said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

The same reason people would rather buy disc based games. True ownership.

When was the last time anybody bought a piece of software that they truly owned? You know those big boxes of text which you usually just click "agree" to... yeah, you don't own the software, they do. All you bought was a license to use it on their terms. Whether or not you have a copy of the files on a disc, or available to download, is inconsequential.

"Consumer rights" isn't a thing. They are the copyright holders, and thus can do whatever they want with it. It's up to you to understand what you're agreeing to when you purchase the license.

I've taken media law, I know what is mine, no matter what the guidelines of that ownership is on PC. Disc based content is mine as long as it remains on my hardware. Arguing with you will not change what I know. Once disc-based media is gone there goes your rights especially when pertaining to first-sale doctrine. Well....that is speaking within the United States that is. First sale doctrine rights disappear once tangible sale items vanish and anything of value is solely digital.

Again...I don't want the copyright, nor the intellectual property, just the product which I purchase and hold in my hand for use, which is the concept of EULA. Without that proof of legal purchase the rules of ownership will soon change. CD's those burdensome things. I have digital products, but of course those things I can easily replace. They are going nowhere and have nowhere near the value of something I could hold in my hand in terms of potential.

As is right now though, digital downloads are available as ownership. Essentially instead of having it in a disc you have it in a HDD/SDD format. You could put every game you own on its own individual thumb drive or SD card and put it on your shelf if you wanted. The games are on your hard drive, you can back them up, I'm guessing in many cases redownload things you've already purchased. The games are yours, even if they cut off the download option for older games just back them up and your golden. The only issue that arrises is if they start requiring online connectivity in order to play, which they should not. People should own the digital, even with MMOs there should be ample rights to finance your own servers after dedicated ones go down, even if you have to prove non-profit and submit to inquiries to protect the copyright holders licenses. In instances like PS Plus where you get free games to play while subscribed, that's fine, it's a subscription, but all the games you pay actual money for are yours and just having it on disk doesn't change the fact that its the same thing just in a different format. Afterall, what's on the disks is just a digital copy.



Before the PS3 everyone was nice to me :(

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rocketpig said:

The touch cover doesn't look like it can roll underneath the kickstand, meaning you have to remove the keyboard to use the kickstand if you're working in a confined space and don't need the keyboard. That's hardly an optimal solution. Blending the touch cover and the iPad smart cover would be a perfect solution (if it's possible to do).

We'll have to disagree on the kickstand. I'd rather have one that is smaller and is able to work with the touch cover without having to remove it.


Look at this side image. The kickstand closes completely flat into the back, it creates zero interference with the rest of the device. See the bendable areas of the touch cover just after it connects to the bottom of the tablet. I'm betting that is for it to fold backwards around the back of the device. Additionally, it is connected by magnetic hold with fully centered pogo style pins. It can probably be turned around without any issue.

I am fairly confident that MS designed this with the iPad cover in mind and therefore it has the same features plus more; i.e. the full keyboard and touchpad.



superchunk said:


Look at this side image. The kickstand closes completely flat into the back, it creates zero interference with the rest of the device. See the bendable areas of the touch cover just after it connects to the bottom of the tablet. I'm betting that is for it to fold backwards around the back of the device. Additionally, it is connected by magnetic hold with fully centered pogo style pins. It can probably be turned around without any issue.

I am fairly confident that MS designed this with the iPad cover in mind and therefore it has the same features plus more; i.e. the full keyboard and touchpad.

I think we're talking about different things here. If you're using the kickstand but don't want the keyboard, it looks like you have to remove the keyboard. That's not an optimal solution. It's not a deal-breaker but I don't like having to remove things and put them back on to use a device. If the keyboard could fold into a triangle between the kickstand and the device in the image you posted, that would be fantastic. You know, like the iPad Smart Cover does (but obviously, the Smart Cover becomes the "kickstand" at that point).

When they were holding the keyboard in the keynote, it was solid. It couldn't bend. If you have to remove stuff to use the device in different situations, that device loses some of its functionality. If I'm constantly removing stuff and putting it in my bag, the difference between this and an ASUS Transformer is slightly marginalized.

I like the device a lot, I'm just not sold on how some of this stuff works together. Then again, I'm *not* the target audience for this device (yet). My laptop needs are too high for something like this (heavy Creative Suite use) and the keyboard/trackpad won't be high enough quality for me. But for someone whose needs aren't like mine? This looks pretty fantastic.

Right now, the iPad is nearly perfect for my needs. It would take something like the Surface Pro on steroids with a pressure-sensitive screen for me to consider replacing my Macbook Pro. On the other hand, if they tweak the RT-based Surface a bit, I'd look long and hard at that device.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

superchunk said:
Pjams said:

As a gamer, I still have no idea why I would want this over any if it's competitors, or why would I want it over a PSV, am I missing something?

Why is this a big deal, it's just a tablet right? That's serious question, I have not formed an opinion.

 

Edit: "it's also vital to note that the WinRT variant won't ship with a 1080p panel, but a paltry 1366 x 768" - engadget

Is your PC literally only used for "core" (my emphasis) gaming? As such, then no portable device is probably justified to you as they don't do that.. yet.

As a general purpose laptop/tablet this is perfect. Especially with its obvious eventual massive integration with a desktop PC and for those with Xbox.

Yeah, my PC is literally used for just gaming, so I see your point, this probably isn't something for me.

But you're right, the next generation of Nvidia mobile processors , will make it possible to play most 'core' games at reasonably high settings.



 

To clarify for people. All Windows 8 Metro Style apps will run on Windows RT. Windows Phone apps don't. Since by end of the year nearly all consumer PCs will be Windows 8 machines the expectation is that the amount of Windows 8 Metro Style apps will increase very rapidly. The market isn't just tablets it is all Windows 8 machines and in the consumer space the adoption will be very rapid.



Its libraries that sell systems not a single game.

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rocketpig said:
superchunk said:


Look at this side image. The kickstand closes completely flat into the back, it creates zero interference with the rest of the device. See the bendable areas of the touch cover just after it connects to the bottom of the tablet. I'm betting that is for it to fold backwards around the back of the device. Additionally, it is connected by magnetic hold with fully centered pogo style pins. It can probably be turned around without any issue.

I am fairly confident that MS designed this with the iPad cover in mind and therefore it has the same features plus more; i.e. the full keyboard and touchpad.

I think we're talking about different things here. If you're using the kickstand but don't want the keyboard, it looks like you have to remove the keyboard. That's not an optimal solution. It's not a deal-breaker but I don't like having to remove things and put them back on to use a device. If the keyboard could fold into a triangle between the kickstand and the device in the image you posted, that would be fantastic. You know, like the iPad Smart Cover does (but obviously, the Smart Cover becomes the "kickstand" at that point).

When they were holding the keyboard in the keynote, it was solid. It couldn't bend. If you have to remove stuff to use the device in different situations, that device loses some of its functionality. If I'm constantly removing stuff and putting it in my bag, the difference between this and an ASUS Transformer is slightly marginalized.

I like the device a lot, I'm just not sold on how some of this stuff works together. Then again, I'm *not* the target audience for this device (yet). My laptop needs are too high for something like this (heavy Creative Suite use) and the keyboard/trackpad won't be high enough quality for me. But for someone whose needs aren't like mine? This looks pretty fantastic.

Right now, the iPad is nearly perfect for my needs. It would take something like the Surface Pro on steroids with a pressure-sensitive screen for me to consider replacing my Macbook Pro. On the other hand, if they tweak the RT-based Surface a bit, I'd look long and hard at that device.

ohhhh now I see what you mean. Yeah, you'd have to remove the cover, but meh its a non issue to me. A tablet could perform as a laptop for me as I simply don't need it for anything else.

However, I'll probably be buying the new Nexus 7" $200 tablet coming out next month (unvieled at I/O event soon) for extreme portability and usage and then potentially a Pro version of Surface for more normal computing needs or my kids specifically. I like that its a tablet and a full Windows experience. Just so long as its not over $800. That's pretty much my limit on a computer. (I have yet to build one for more than that)



Chark said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
SamuelRSmith said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:

The same reason people would rather buy disc based games. True ownership.

When was the last time anybody bought a piece of software that they truly owned? You know those big boxes of text which you usually just click "agree" to... yeah, you don't own the software, they do. All you bought was a license to use it on their terms. Whether or not you have a copy of the files on a disc, or available to download, is inconsequential.

"Consumer rights" isn't a thing. They are the copyright holders, and thus can do whatever they want with it. It's up to you to understand what you're agreeing to when you purchase the license.

I've taken media law, I know what is mine, no matter what the guidelines of that ownership is on PC. Disc based content is mine as long as it remains on my hardware. Arguing with you will not change what I know. Once disc-based media is gone there goes your rights especially when pertaining to first-sale doctrine. Well....that is speaking within the United States that is. First sale doctrine rights disappear once tangible sale items vanish and anything of value is solely digital.

Again...I don't want the copyright, nor the intellectual property, just the product which I purchase and hold in my hand for use, which is the concept of EULA. Without that proof of legal purchase the rules of ownership will soon change. CD's those burdensome things. I have digital products, but of course those things I can easily replace. They are going nowhere and have nowhere near the value of something I could hold in my hand in terms of potential.

As is right now though, digital downloads are available as ownership. Essentially instead of having it in a disc you have it in a HDD/SDD format. You could put every game you own on its own individual thumb drive or SD card and put it on your shelf if you wanted. The games are on your hard drive, you can back them up, I'm guessing in many cases redownload things you've already purchased. The games are yours, even if they cut off the download option for older games just back them up and your golden. The only issue that arrises is if they start requiring online connectivity in order to play, which they should not. People should own the digital, even with MMOs there should be ample rights to finance your own servers after dedicated ones go down, even if you have to prove non-profit and submit to inquiries to protect the copyright holders licenses. In instances like PS Plus where you get free games to play while subscribed, that's fine, it's a subscription, but all the games you pay actual money for are yours and just having it on disk doesn't change the fact that its the same thing just in a different format. Afterall, what's on the disks is just a digital copy.


The physical copy is our right (well...was), a proof of purchase outside of what is left to us in an electronic receipt and confirmation to what our email? Where in an digital contract/agreement does it say we may legally back up a digital file of a game (I am not counting drivers for hardware connectivity)? As for most games requiring online connectivity, they soon will mark my words seeing the way things are going. The online pass, origin and Ubisofts system which they 've been building might be fully realized by next generation. PC gaming is an indicator of true ownership today which is conditional only to ones HDD. Console Discs have more rights than that with trade whether on Ebay or to Gamestop. It seems from what the last fellow I was speaking to that has changed.



superchunk said:

ohhhh now I see what you mean. Yeah, you'd have to remove the cover, but meh its a non issue to me. A tablet could perform as a laptop for me as I simply don't need it for anything else.

However, I'll probably be buying the new Nexus 7" $200 tablet coming out next month (unvieled at I/O event soon) for extreme portability and usage and then potentially a Pro version of Surface for more normal computing needs or my kids specifically. I like that its a tablet and a full Windows experience. Just so long as its not over $800. That's pretty much my limit on a computer. (I have yet to build one for more than that)

No, it's definitely not a huge deal, just one that slightly minimizes the usefulness of the device for me. Like I said earlier, the Pro isn't powerful enough and the RT version isn't quite simplified enough. Still, it's an intriguing device.




Or check out my new webcomic: http://selfcentent.com/

WiiBox3 said:
rocketpig said:

2. It's too big. 10.6"? Portability is key here, Microsoft. Make it small-ish. The iPad is a great size, as are most 10" Android tablets.

2. Agreed, it is big, but there are a lot of people that have been hoping for a larger tablet. 10.6" will be a much better size for brousing the net. Though I do agree that there will be people turned off by the size. Personally, after my iPad1, I want for my next tablet to have a larger screen.

A 10.6" screen at 16:9 aspect ratio is only 5% larger than a 9.7" screen at 4:3, so not really that much larger in those dimensions. The thickness and weight of the device are more of a concern. The RT version is quite comparable to the new iPad, but the Pro version is almost 50% thicker and 40% heavier than the new iPad. That's really quite a bit, and possibly enough to make that thing a lousy to use off a desk.

Setting any software issues aside, my concern is that the ergonomics of the kickstand + cover combo, while providing a superior experience on a desk, will provide an inferior experience pretty much everywhere else. Can't be sure until I try, but imagining using that setup on my lap seems terrible. The aspect ratio of the screen alone will make this device awkward to use in portrait orientation (how I do nearly all my reading, whether books, comics, magazines or web). And while Apple's cover provides a handy grip if used while standing or prone, you're going to want Microsoft's cover folded away where it's useless (and adding weight) or completely removed.

This is a clever alternative to the Transformer concept of a device which is both laptop and tablet. I'm just not sure that it's a superior one.



"The worst part about these reviews is they are [subjective]--and their scores often depend on how drunk you got the media at a Street Fighter event."  — Mona Hamilton, Capcom Senior VP of Marketing
*Image indefinitely borrowed from BrainBoxLtd without his consent.

famousringo said:
WiiBox3 said:
rocketpig said:

2. It's too big. 10.6"? Portability is key here, Microsoft. Make it small-ish. The iPad is a great size, as are most 10" Android tablets.

2. Agreed, it is big, but there are a lot of people that have been hoping for a larger tablet. 10.6" will be a much better size for brousing the net. Though I do agree that there will be people turned off by the size. Personally, after my iPad1, I want for my next tablet to have a larger screen.

A 10.6" screen at 16:9 aspect ratio is only 5% larger than a 9.7" screen at 4:3, so not really that much larger in those dimensions. The thickness and weight of the device are more of a concern. The RT version is quite comparable to the new iPad, but the Pro version is almost 50% thicker and 40% heavier than the new iPad. That's really quite a bit, and possibly enough to make that thing a lousy to use off a desk.

Yeah, that's what I noticed about it too. The RT version seems alright, but the Pro version is big! It's a little thicker than the iPad 1, but it's 33% heavier! iPad 1 wifi: 1.5lbs vs Surface Pro: 1.99lbs, (680g vs 903g using metric measurement) I used to have an iPad 1 and after awhile my arm would get tired holding it. The weight reduction on the newer iPads was a great help. I can't imagine having to hold something even heavier than that for long periods of time. The weight isn't really an issue with ultrabooks as you generally lay them on something like a regular laptop. A tablet on the other hand...




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