Quantcast
The Abrahamic Religions make No Sense

Forums - General Discussion - The Abrahamic Religions make No Sense

Jay520 said:
Another question.

Which is more powerful? God or physics?


Well, apparently God created physics so the answer should be obvious.

I'm not sure where you are going with that question. (Was it aimed at religious readers, perhaps?)



Around the Network
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
Another question.

Which is more powerful? God or physics?


Well, God created physics so the answer should be obvious.

I'm not sure where you are going with that question. (Was aimed at religious readers, perhaps?)



So god created physics, logic, laws of nature, etc? Good

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Tony_Stark said:

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

 There is your same problem again. He didn't know that it could happen; He knew exactly how it would happen. God doesn't go "Oh no, they didn't!" every time someone makes a decision. He has predicted them all.

Well, aside from the obvious flaws in your logic, I see that you keep saying there is a god, which mean you are not an athiest. And if you are, claiming that religion is folly, is just plain ignorant since athieism is, in fact, a religion per Websters dictionary. 

Anyway, more to the point of your OP, and your quoted post, God, as Christians believe him to be, does not "predict" anything, he knows it. Now, I'm a father of three, and as a parent, I understand how this works more than I ever did before I was a parent. You see, God gave us free will, the ability to think independantly, to make our own choices, we are not just another animal roaming this planet, this is why we as a species are so much more "evolved" than any other species on the planet. God knows what our choices and actions will be, but does not intervene because he gave us that free will. That free will is what allows us as humans to grow, to learn what we can and can't do. It is how each of us is able to "grow" as an indivual because every choice has consequences either good or bad, and it is by those consequences that we become a stronger, better person. Now, if I look at this as a parent, I see my oldest. I tell her to clean her toys up, I know that she won't, but because I want her to grow as a person I don't hold her hand and force her to clean up her toys. When she doesn't clean up her toys, she gets a punishment. After a while of doing this, she begins to learn that if she cleans up her toys, she won't get in trouble. If I held her hand and forced her to clean up the toys, she would never learn to do it herself, thus she would, in effect, be a drone. 

Flaws in my logic? Please do elaborate.

I don't really need to, this post, along with pretty much every single one of your posts in this thread thus far are all the "elaboration" that is needed. 

I don't think that there is a God, but kept assuming that there is for the sake of argumentation. And I used the word predict since God can predict everything flawlessly, which is the exact same as knowing. He flawlessly knows everything that will happen because He can predict it.

If you don't think there is a god, why do you keep saying there is one? Your whole stance this entire thread leads me to believe that deep inside, you know there is a god, and that terrifies you. Once again, predicting something and knowing something are two very different situations. I can predict who will win a baseball game...but only after the game is done do I know who won. After the game is done, I cannot predict because I know. 

Bolded: I beg to differ. Many times has God intervened with our free will. Jesus is a great example of this; Were it not for Jesus, lots of people would have acted differently today, effectively affecting our free will. God knew whta would happen if He would not have sent Jesus to Earth, but decided to do so in order to make us make different decision (for the better) throughout our lifetimes. And then there is the Noah's Ark story which Whiplash brought up earlier where God punished the humans for their decisions even before they had their chance to change their mind and ask for forgiveness. Even worse: God knew that he would drown those people before He created them, so why would He create life if it would just end up in pain for the individual and everyone surrounding it?

Wrong again, Jesus NEVER interviened with free will, as such, neither did God. God sent Jesus to this earth for the sole purpose of giving us the ultimate sacrifice, that is why judeo Christians no longer sacrifice animals. Jesus is also the reason many of the ceremonial old testiment laws (such as sacrifices) are no longer practiced. Noah's ark is a prime example of what I said earlier, consequences for ones actions, at no time did God force the people of Earth to obey him, instead, he allowed them to exercise their free will, and thus reap the consequences. Nobody knows the true will of God when it comes to why he created people who he knew would die and most likely be sent to hell, but here is one fact you are overlooking. Those people did not die in vain. They are part of a lesson to future generations, in fact, one could argue that people who do not believe in God are put on this Earth to prove that God gives each of us free will. Anyway, if you believe in God, you likely believe there is life after death, which means our time on Earth is somewhat meaningless, except for the fact that God put us here (per the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis) to watch over the Earth, to take care of it.   

In fact, all Abrahamic religions fall prey to that lack of logic. Why create humans in the first place if you knew exactly which one would end up in heaven and which ones would end up in hell even before creating them? Why create life that is destined to live an ethernity in hell? God is responsible for their misery, He created them, and knew where they would end up. He also know where you and your daughter will end up once you die, and your free will cannot affect that knowlegde as it is determined by God.

No, those people, the ones who choose not to folow God, are solely responsible for their own misery in Hell. This is so typical of you people, you can't stand taking responsability for your own actions so you try to blame anybody you can. Fact of the matter is, if we didn't have free will, nobody would go to hell, we would be living in The Garden of Eden, things like the Flood, Sodam and Gomorrah, and the tower of Babel would never have happened. But then, we would not have the ability to think for ourselves, to determin what is wrong and right, we would, in essence, be another animal on this planet.   

 

Instead of thanking God for His support (which people who are born in Africa and who keeps stealing things cannot do), you should be glad that you are living the fortunate life that you are living instead of being born to simply go to hell. Be aware that the underlined in your quote box also functions as evidence that everything is determined.

Ah, sadly, once again, your premise is completely void of any logic. The people of Africa, many generations ago, would have known about God, they chose either not to believe, or not to pass the stories on down through the generations. There are missionaries in Africa spreading the Gospel, which the African people can choose to believe or not, and we do not, infact know, that God will send them all to Hell if they do not know of him, and lastly, nobody goes to Hell for stealing, that just shows how ignorant you are ON THIS SUBJECT ( a little disclaimer for the ban happy mods ) in fact, Jesus told one of the theives who was being crucified on a cross next to him, that he would see the thief in heaven. Also, the quoted text of mine that you underlined only serves to solidify my point. God doesn't want anybody to go to Hell, but he gives everybody free will, he knows the choices they will make and instead of turning them into mindless zombies so they can go to Heaven, he allows them to make the choices even though it will inevitable lead them to Hell. This really isn't rocket science, re-read my parenting example and actually think about it this time, while it's a little less serious, it is a perfect real world example of how this whole "free will" thing works.  

 





"with great power, comes great responsibility."

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
richardhutnik said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Your ignorance makes me sick at this point. Try look at the contexts before making assumptions. Morals has nothing to do with sins and does not exclusively go through religious peoples' minds. This is a thread about religion, nothing else. Read the OP again if you are still confused about this thread's topic.

Ok, I got it.  The purpose of this thread is to set up an argument against religion, where you get to shell religion from a high distance with artillery barrages, because you want to deconvert people.  It is NOT about discussing any issues that connect with it that may validate or invalidate it, like whether determinism is valid or not, or whether or not ethics exists in regards to whether or not sin exists.  You just aren't comfortable with this at all.  You just want to monologue against religion, and everything associated with it, because you are on a crusade to deconvert people.  It is your agenda piece, with in the end, you have the desire to change minds on gay marriage, as your main goal.

In short, you really need to get a blog somewhere and don't allow people to post comments.  You show little interest or regard in discussing anything.  And reading your little post on foreknowledge = lack of free will, doesn't have anything to do with morals or ethics at all.  What I can conclude is you have an agenda to shell Abrahamic religions, using this forum.  You have made up your mind that it makes no sense, and nothing to you will change it.  Saying it makes no sense has nothing to do with whether or not it makes sense, but merely is a salvo shell being fired from a position you don't want to be challenged or attacked.

The thrust?  You have made up your mind, and are as narrow minded as religious folks.  Difference is that you really don't have anything to offer humanity in your narrowmindeness.  At least from religion I got a few bucks that helped me keep my car on the road.


Bolded: Why are you so obsessed with claiming that? Gay marriage was not on my mind when I made this thread, everything regarding unjustified actions in the name of God was.

Underlined: Or maybe you should just stop caring about my opinion (as you claim to) and stop making off-topic comments full of ridiculos assumptions and conclusions? You should be glad that I haven't reported you for trolling because you are really disturbing the discussion going on here. At the moment, everyone manage to stay on topic but you.

And even my purpose with this thread has nothing to do with the discussion. Discussing the OP is not hard, just express your opinion on the subject and be done with it.

Well, at least if you did focus on Gay marriage, it would have some practical focus.  As it is now, ok, you aren't just about gay marriage, but a rage of other things you considered "unjustified actions".  Gay marriage is one.

In regards to other things, you have gone all over the map.  Moment people think they have things nailed down, you end up going, "nope, it isn't about that... it is about this".  So, it ends up being about "there is no sin", and then the look at sin is done, in regards to violation of ethics.  Then you go, "nope, it isn't about ethics".  In the end you showed your only purpose is to create a one sided agenda piece on here to shell people's religious beliefs, in order to deconvert them.  You can go and ask a moderator to look at this thread and see who is trolling here.  What I see from you, is you are trolling with this thread, and have expressed it as a narrow piece meant to shell Abrahamic religious beliefs.  You have an agenda, meant to knock down people, and deconvert them.  You have clearly stated it here.  

If the original post isn't discussed, it is because you have chosen to get away from it, because you say it isn't about that.



Note: I did flag this thread and asked a moderator to look at it. I welcome being called where I may be out of line here.



Around the Network
bouzane said:
"Do you realize the implications? Don't you see how radically it would change an atheist if he truly started to live as if everything is pre-determined.

You would stop thinking "Dammit, Person X why did you make Y decision", because Person X could only have made that decision and not anything else.

"Maybe I shouldn't condemn that racist, rapist or murderer and make him feel bad, his opinion is just as well based as mine is"."

Dear god slimebeast, how can you be so illogical? I'm an atheist who believes that everything is per-determined and as such, realize that if I were born under the exact same circumstances as a rapist, murderer, etc... I would turn out the same. That being said, how in the hell do you jump from a Tabula Rasa view of human development to your statement above? Please think before you type in order to avoid such asinine statements.

Illogical? I am perfectly logical in that post. I don't get your criticism.



Slimebeast said:
bouzane said:
"Do you realize the implications? Don't you see how radically it would change an atheist if he truly started to live as if everything is pre-determined.

You would stop thinking "Dammit, Person X why did you make Y decision", because Person X could only have made that decision and not anything else.

"Maybe I shouldn't condemn that racist, rapist or murderer and make him feel bad, his opinion is just as well based as mine is"."

Dear god slimebeast, how can you be so illogical? I'm an atheist who believes that everything is per-determined and as such, realize that if I were born under the exact same circumstances as a rapist, murderer, etc... I would turn out the same. That being said, how in the hell do you jump from a Tabula Rasa view of human development to your statement above? Please think before you type in order to avoid such asinine statements.

Illogical? I am perfectly logical in that post. I don't get your criticism.

Well, let me come back on this a second here.  The person who believes that everything is predetermined, and believes rapists and so on do it, because they were determined do so, very likely believe they are not determined to do so.  Whatever they care to think about the rapist and so on, is irrelevant in regards to how they personally act.

I am reminded of these lines from the Watchmen:

LAURIE JUSPECZYK 
Is that what you are? The most powerful thing in the universe and you're just a puppet following a script?
DOCTOR MANHATTAN 
We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings.


richardhutnik said:
Slimebeast said:
bouzane said:
"Do you realize the implications? Don't you see how radically it would change an atheist if he truly started to live as if everything is pre-determined.

You would stop thinking "Dammit, Person X why did you make Y decision", because Person X could only have made that decision and not anything else.

"Maybe I shouldn't condemn that racist, rapist or murderer and make him feel bad, his opinion is just as well based as mine is"."

Dear god slimebeast, how can you be so illogical? I'm an atheist who believes that everything is per-determined and as such, realize that if I were born under the exact same circumstances as a rapist, murderer, etc... I would turn out the same. That being said, how in the hell do you jump from a Tabula Rasa view of human development to your statement above? Please think before you type in order to avoid such asinine statements.

Illogical? I am perfectly logical in that post. I don't get your criticism.

Well, let me come back on this a second here.  The person who believes that everything is predetermined, and believes rapists and so on do it, because they were determined do so, very likely believe they are not determined to do so.  Whatever they care to think about the rapist and so on, is irrelevant in regards to how they personally act.

I am reminded of these lines from the Watchmen:

 

LAURIE JUSPECZYK 
Is that what you are? The most powerful thing in the universe and you're just a puppet following a script?
DOCTOR MANHATTAN 
We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings.

 

Exactly.

You are approaching this thread from a different angle, but I think we both are irritated that 11111THE11111 is only tying determinism to religion to make religion look bad, but ignoring the larger (and extremely difficult) implications of determinism.




Alright, I am hereby leaving the thread.

This discussion could go on forever, but I feel like I'm repeating myself and have nothing to say that hasn't already been said ten times.

Thanks for all interesting discussions and to everyone who participated. And feel free to discuss this further.


I have learned my lesson: Logic does not apply to religion, even if it's logic that is based on religion.


IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jumpin said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

1. God is outside of our dimensions though. It is true that humans cannot possibly predict the future, but an omniscient being is outside of all dimensions.

2. If God has managed to create a randomness that he cannot predict, then He should also be able to create another God that is mightier than himself. We are back at the god paradox that Rath brought up.

1. That does not imply that God has the ability to time travel.

2. Randomness is logical. Having something mighter than what is almighty is logically absurd. There is no connection between the two.


1. False, as an omniscient being standing outside of time altogether, predicting one second ahead is a piece of cake. God can see everything that happens and know for what reason. He also sees the things that are currently happening (which will be "reasons" in the future) and predicts/knows therefrom.

2. False, randomness is not logical. Everything happens for a reason, and nothing happens for no reason in a (by dimensions) limited universe such as ours.

1. As I have pointed out before, this is not logically possible considering there are abstract and random factors existing in the universe. Even in the period of a second there is going to be a degree of error as a result.

2. As a simple example, take a random number which can randomly generate a number between 1 and 5; it can be therefore logically deduced that any given number in that set has a 20% chance of selection.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.