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Forums - Politics Discussion - Europeon Debt Crisis: There isn't another option EXCEPT austerity.

This is all the government should be responsible for (taken from the Libertarian Party of Canada website)

The only proper functions of government, whose powers must be constitutionally limited are as follows: settling, according to objective laws, disputes among individuals, where private, voluntary arbitration has failed; providing protection from criminals; providing protection from foreign invaders.

That's it. Every other social program needs to go, taxes need to be eliminated and private business needs to flourish.



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Kasz216 said:

Lately there have been more and more articles in the US complaining about Europeon Austerity and how it will destroy the country.

It makes me wonder what other option there actually is.   The europeon Debt Crisis is happening because a number of countries didn't cut spending when they could and are rapidly approaching (or already reached) the point where they can't pay off their debts.

Some people are saying that instead they need to keep spending up, possibly even increase it and hope to outgrow the debt.

Which seems impossible just based on the fact that they weren't outgrowing their debt even when the economy was good.


The only real way to get out of it, is to try and spur growth while NOT increasing debt.  In otherwords, Austerity, and then a bit beyond normal austerity to provide pro-growth changes.


In otherwords cut more then you need to and put that extra money elsewhere.

You understand what the austerity in Europe is, right?  It is not your American version argued for, where it is an attempt to shrink the government into the size of a bathtub so you can drown it, by engaging in tax cuts and budget cuts.  In Europe, programs of austerity mean you not only get budget cuts, BUT you also get tax increases.

I have yet to see anyone in the American political realm, posting on forums like this, who would dare advocate that.  So, are you the first to go on record to say you support both tax increases and budget cuts as a solution an country's economic woes?



richardhutnik said:
Kasz216 said:

Lately there have been more and more articles in the US complaining about Europeon Austerity and how it will destroy the country.

It makes me wonder what other option there actually is.   The europeon Debt Crisis is happening because a number of countries didn't cut spending when they could and are rapidly approaching (or already reached) the point where they can't pay off their debts.

Some people are saying that instead they need to keep spending up, possibly even increase it and hope to outgrow the debt.

Which seems impossible just based on the fact that they weren't outgrowing their debt even when the economy was good.


The only real way to get out of it, is to try and spur growth while NOT increasing debt.  In otherwords, Austerity, and then a bit beyond normal austerity to provide pro-growth changes.


In otherwords cut more then you need to and put that extra money elsewhere.

You understand what the austerity in Europe is, right?  It is not your American version argued for, where it is an attempt to shrink the government into the size of a bathtub so you can drown it, by engaging in tax cuts and budget cuts.  In Europe, programs of austerity mean you not only get budget cuts, BUT you also get tax increases.

I have yet to see anyone in the American political realm, posting on forums like this, who would dare advocate that.  So, are you the first to go on record to say you support both tax increases and budget cuts as a solution an country's economic woes?

I've said that on these forums before.  Though the budget cuts need to be the bulk, and the tax increases should show shared sacrifice.  It's bad policy to raise or cut taxes for any indivdual group of people. 

The "broadening the base" that's often talked about but never proposed because it's political suicide.

Personally what i'd like to see is something like 5 to 3 to 2 cuts.

That is for every $5 of Republican picked cuts, there are $3 worth of Democratic cuts and $2 worth of tax increases.

That's really the annoying part of the whole debate.  Democrats have shit they want to cut, they just for whatever reason aren't saying "hey lets cut this stuff."  Likely due to purely political motivations.



Kasz216 said:

I've said that on these forums before.  Though the budget cuts need to be the bulk, and the tax increases should show shared sacrifice.  It's bad policy to raise or cut taxes for any indivdual group of people. 

The "broadening the base" that's often talked about but never proposed because it's political suicide.

Personally what i'd like to see is something like 5 to 3 to 2 cuts.

That is for every $5 of Republican picked cuts, there are $3 worth of Democratic cuts and $2 worth of tax increases.

That's really the annoying part of the whole debate.  Democrats have shit they want to cut, they just for whatever reason aren't saying "hey lets cut this stuff."  Likely due to purely political motivations.

There are 3 reasons for this:

1) Many Democrats, including the President, simply do not believe/understand the financial crisis. If you're a suscribed Keynesian, which most politicians (on both sides of the isle) are, then, really, there is no argument for cuts.

2) Democrats, like all politicians, have one priority: getting re-elected, this usurps all other responsibilities. While Republicans, for the most part, are elected by those who favour smaller Government (although Republicans don't deliever on this promise, most voters don't look past the rhetoric), Democrats are not. This means that some Republicans will vote for cuts that they do not believe in (as pointed out in number 1), and some Democrats will vote against cuts that they do believe it.

3) Democrats and Republicans need to keep up an image of being different parties. They're not - on 90% of the policies, including all the most important, they are fundamentally the same . So they need to blow up that remaining 10% of difference to almost cartoonish levels. This means that the Republicans are the party of "cuts" (reducing the level of increase in the future...), and the Democrats are the party of "tax" (and with every new dollar collected in tax, a new loophole or subsidy put in...) - and they absolutely, 100%, can not stray from those positions.

I'm aware that you're probably away of these points, this post is more of a PSA, than anything else.



SamuelRSmith said:
Kasz216 said:

I've said that on these forums before.  Though the budget cuts need to be the bulk, and the tax increases should show shared sacrifice.  It's bad policy to raise or cut taxes for any indivdual group of people. 

The "broadening the base" that's often talked about but never proposed because it's political suicide.

Personally what i'd like to see is something like 5 to 3 to 2 cuts.

That is for every $5 of Republican picked cuts, there are $3 worth of Democratic cuts and $2 worth of tax increases.

That's really the annoying part of the whole debate.  Democrats have shit they want to cut, they just for whatever reason aren't saying "hey lets cut this stuff."  Likely due to purely political motivations.

There are 3 reasons for this:

1) Many Democrats, including the President, simply do not believe/understand the financial crisis. If you're a suscribed Keynesian, which most politicians (on both sides of the isle) are, then, really, there is no argument for cuts.

2) Democrats, like all politicians, have one priority: getting re-elected, this usurps all other responsibilities. While Republicans, for the most part, are elected by those who favour smaller Government (although Republicans don't deliever on this promise, most voters don't look past the rhetoric), Democrats are not. This means that some Republicans will vote for cuts that they do not believe in (as pointed out in number 1), and some Democrats will vote against cuts that they do believe it.

3) Democrats and Republicans need to keep up an image of being different parties. They're not - on 90% of the policies, including all the most important, they are fundamentally the same . So they need to blow up that remaining 10% of difference to almost cartoonish levels. This means that the Republicans are the party of "cuts" (reducing the level of increase in the future...), and the Democrats are the party of "tax" (and with every new dollar collected in tax, a new loophole or subsidy put in...) - and they absolutely, 100%, can not stray from those positions.

I'm aware that you're probably away of these points, this post is more of a PSA, than anything else.

Yeah, most polticians are Keynsians because it's easier to lie and pretend what you did to the economy helped, then it is to explain why you did nothing while the economy slowly recovered on it's own.

Though, while Democrats are generally pro big government most Democrats would be jumping for joy at Defense Department cuts.



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Euro-peon

I like it, intentional or not. Personally I call them euro-prawns after watching District 9.

Kasz, you clearly haven't heard of the printing press and it's modern, digital 'add a zero' equivalent. This allows us to fix every problem man has ever conceived.

How about you stop talking about the real world and me and you write a cheque to each other for $1,000,000,000 and become billionairres? $5 fee for the privililage.

The PIIGS should default and print their own money and the rest of the world should just accept that it's as good as gold. Then everything will work out just fine.



Nov 2016 - NES outsells PS1 (JP)

Don't Play Stationary 4 ever. Switch!

Tax evasion has plagued Europe and added to the debt problem. Corporation, individuals, Trusts have dodged paying their tax bills. Tax compliance is not enforced by the government on the wealthy. The bottom 90% of society must pay the bulk of the tax bill or incur pension cuts to make interest payments on the debt.



Oh boy... and now some Greeks have petitioned the Hague to try it's government for "Peacetime Genocide."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17811153

If it weren't for the fact tons more people would die, i'd like to see them get their wish and see what things are like without the "Genocide of only spending 120% or so of what you can pay for."



sperrico87 said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

That would only make sense as taxation to use things that the government has provided, gas not being one of them. The issue being that the government provides generally only public goods (aside from the little matter of the post office) that are more difficult to monetize. Sure roads have tolls, but how do you monetize, say, environmental cleanliness?

Just because some abuse social safety nets does not mean that the system itself is inherently flawed. There will be people who abuse all things, and no mechanism is perfect for solving all ills, but such social safety nets mean that society will provide for its own, to make sure that they have the dignity that they are morally entitled to. The need for government employment is to correct against those who want to work but cannot, because most people want to work on the whole, and this underlies the need for government intervention. It's not about "unilateral decisionmaking" it's about accounting for things that the free market cannot grasp, public goods like the health and education of the people, the cleanliness of the environment, industries that need a push before they can become self-sufficiently competitive, or large-scale mass transit systems. The ideal balance of Social Democracy is for the free market to work where the free market works (which is still the vast majority of commerce), and for the government to pick up the slack everywhere else. Much like too much democracy is a bad thing, verifiably, so a too-liberated market is also verifiably bad.


Arguably?  By having people care about enviromental cleanliness and willing to pay a few cents more for ecologically responsible products.  Of course, that's probably overestimating the average consumer.

I would also add that one of the few roles the government actually has is to enforce contracts.  So, if someone or some company pollutes, then they will be taken to court and forced to pay damages and made to stop polluting.  It isn't as though, because there'd be no EPA, that pollution will occur unabated because there's no Government police force to stop pollution.  That isn't so at all. 

Also, while speaking of the EPA, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that it is an unconstitutional creation of the Executive branch, and many times they actually do more harm than good.  Just like with the FDA, an arm of government created by politicians, they create more problems than they solve, and they act as unnecessary policemen who use force and bully people, which is something that wouldn't occur in a free market.  If it did occur, other functions of the market would resolve it, as is always the case.

The courts take much longer to decide things than the EPA does, and that would be often-irreversible environmental damage that occurred in the meantime, and the other question is: who sues, or for what? Some things are bad for the environment but not lawsuit worthy since they don't do a particular amount of harm to any one person, or the harm is so diluted amongst a group of people that they don't care enough to fix the problem themselves. The free market does not control for pollution, except where the finding of more effecient methods of production just so happens to curb pollution in the process, in which case government pushes forward help companies in the long run



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

or... they could just "forget" all the debt.



Yay!!!