How to disprove free will using basic logic

## Forums - General Discussion - How to disprove free will using basic logic

### Do you agree with me?

 Yes 9 12.00% No. You are wrong but I can't prove it 11 14.67% No. You are wrong and I w... 25 33.33% I'm just confused... 10 13.33% See results 20 26.67% Total: 75

@the1

Why are you so certain about everything ? As far as I have read the Thread there are no new or exciting ideas proposed.

Its nothing I and many others havent thought about at one point. Coincidentally I also thought with 18 that way. I just was totally sure the universe works like a clockwork. That for every action there is a reaction that will go exactly like predicted if you know all the factors. That the physicist just dont understand why particles dont react in the same manner. And that our Brain cant possibly have a free will because we just compute all the factors the same way and come to the same conclusion every time if we were given the same problem.  I was absolutely sure that the Human logic is flawless. Afterall it works perfectly on earth. Then I tried to understand relativity and I didnt like it. It made no sense because it was totally different than what I felt should have happend. How come if photons pass each other they dont add their velocity like if to cars pass each other.

Normally its logical that if I drive 60kmh and the passing car also 60 kmh we pass each other with 120kmh. But if photons pass each other flying 300000 kms they dont pass each other with 600000 kms but with 300000 kms. makes zero sence at first but thats what really happens. And how come you can bend nothing/room. Whats bending there what is room even. . But this is reality confirmed a 1000 times.And Quantum theory is even more absurd and not logical to us humans. And the best thing put together it makes no sense at all. Our Human common sense is based on what we observe on earth but earth is just a tiny place in the universe with a specific set of rules that dont apply to all things in existence.

If you would have grown up in another world were for example things just randomly move without any cause and sometimes duplicate you would accept it as natural and just assume thats how reality works. Because you can see it. Sure just random is no good explanation but thats why they have many theorys to explain the random behaviour. Like Multiverse and maybe the free will is what ultimatively chooses what path you take.

Nobody knows if we can build a computer as smart as humans they just guess/hope. The Human Brain is the most complex object in the Universe (that we know of) and if we end up creating a being on a quantum computer and not an ordinary computer it wouldnt disprove free will. Actually we are past the point were Computers are slower than the brain. Theoretically a Super Computer should be able to atleast make a dogs brain. But we are on insect level. Who purely react there is a reason why we cant create true intelligence. In the 1980s/1990s people told us we will have Human intelligence in 2030.

This will be the 2nd fusion. It will always be in the next 50 years in our lifetime. The progress made up till now just looks like progress but underneath its a small step.

If everything is pre determined doesnt even matter but you dont even like the idea and there are not many reasons to believe in a deterministic universe right now. But a lot of stuff happens we cant explain and to brush everything off thinking the science community is just too stupid to recognize how the clock works is too easy. Just because it doesnt seem logical and they cant come up with explanations everybody understand ?  Its like demanding the universe/human mind to be simple enough to be explained with everydays logic.

Why dont you wait until later to form your opinion ? There is no reason to have a static world view this early in your life.

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 Netyaroze said:@the1   Why are you so certain about everything ? As far as I have read the Thread there are no new or exciting ideas proposed.   Its nothing I and many others havent thought about at one point. Coincidentally I also thought with 18 that way. I just was totally sure the universe works like a clockwork. That for every action there is a reaction that will go exactly like predicted if you know all the factors. That the physicist just dont understand why particles dont react in the same manner. And that our Brain cant possibly have a free will because we just compute all the factors the same way and come to the same conclusion every time if we were given the same problem.  I was absolutely sure that the Human logic is flawless. Afterall it works perfectly on earth. Then I tried to understand relativity and I didnt like it. It made no sense because it was totally different than what I felt should have happend. How come if photons pass each other they dont add their velocity like if to cars pass each other. Normally its logical that if I drive 60kmh and the passing car also 60 kmh we pass each other with 120kmh. But if photons pass each other flying 300000 kms they dont pass each other with 600000 kms but with 300000 kms. makes zero sence at first but thats what really happens. And how come you can bend nothing/room. Whats bending there what is room even. . But this is reality confirmed a 1000 times.And Quantum theory is even more absurd and not logical to us humans. And the best thing put together it makes no sense at all. Our Human common sense is based on what we observe on earth but earth is just a tiny place in the universe with a specific set of rules that dont apply to all things in existance.   If you would have grown up in another world were for example things just randomly move without any cause and sometimes duplicate you would accept it as natural and just assume thats how reality works. Because you can see it. Sure just random is no good explanation but thats why they have many theorys to explain the random behaviour. Like Multiverse and maybe the free will is what ultimatively chooses what path you take.     Nobody knows if we can build a computer as smart as humans they just guess/hope. The Human Brain is the most complex object in the Universe (that we know of) and if we end up creating a being on a quantum computer and not an ordinary computer it wouldnt disprove free will. Actually we are past the point were Computers are slower than the brain. Theoretically a Super Computer should be able to atleast make a dogs brain. But we are on insect level. Who purely react there is a reason why we cant create true intelligence. In the 1980s/1990s people told us we will have Human intelligence in 2030.   This will be the 2nd fusion. It will always be in the next 50 years in our lifetime. The progress made up till now just looks like progress but underneath its a small step.   If everything is pre determined doesnt even matter but you dont even like the idea and there are not many reasons to believe in a deterministic universe right now. But a lot of stuff happens we cant explain and to brush everything off thinking the science community is just too stupid to recognize how the clock works is too easy. Just because it doesnt seem logical and they cant come up with explanations everybody understand ?  Its like demanding the universe/human mind to be simple enough to be explained with everydays logic.   Why dont you wait until later to form your opinion ? There is no reason to have a static world view this early in your life.

Bravo, sir! Excellent post

@Net

You make an interesting case and you've definitely swayed my stance a bit. But I still see lean towards the no-free-will side. I can see that free will is possible but it doesn't seem more likely than a determalistic. The only thing that free will has going for it is "there are other things in the universe that don't make sense, so free will 'could' exist too". Now, I don't know if it exists or not, but if the only thing that suggests it's existence is the fact that it could exist, then it's not very compelling. I still see the determinalistic as more probable.

where's the "you're wrong and i can prove it, but i don't care enough to try" option?

SW-5120-1900-6153

 Jay520 said:@Net You make an interesting case and you've definitely swayed my stance a bit. But I still see lean towards the no-free-will side. I can see that free will is possible but it doesn't seem more likely than a determalistic. The only thing that free will has going for it is "there are other things in the universe that don't make sense, so free will 'could' exist too". Now, I don't know if it exists or not, but if the only thing that suggests it's existence is the fact that it could exist, then it's not very compelling. I still see the determinalistic as more probable.

Ah but they make sense just not common sense :D

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Netyaroze said:
 Jay520 said:@Net You make an interesting case and you've definitely swayed my stance a bit. But I still see lean towards the no-free-will side. I can see that free will is possible but it doesn't seem more likely than a determalistic. The only thing that free will has going for it is "there are other things in the universe that don't make sense, so free will 'could' exist too". Now, I don't know if it exists or not, but if the only thing that suggests it's existence is the fact that it could exist, then it's not very compelling. I still see the determinalistic as more probable.

Ah but they make sense just not common sense :D

True. We humans probably don't have the capacity never know for sure. It's kind of hard to accept that though.

Jay520 said:
Netyaroze said:
 Jay520 said:@Net You make an interesting case and you've definitely swayed my stance a bit. But I still see lean towards the no-free-will side. I can see that free will is possible but it doesn't seem more likely than a determalistic. The only thing that free will has going for it is "there are other things in the universe that don't make sense, so free will 'could' exist too". Now, I don't know if it exists or not, but if the only thing that suggests it's existence is the fact that it could exist, then it's not very compelling. I still see the determinalistic as more probable.

Ah but they make sense just not common sense :D

True. We humans probably don't have the capacity never know for sure. It's kind of hard to accept that though.

Yes, I know that feeling all too well.

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Dr.Grass said:
 IIIIITHE1IIIII said: That is where you are wrong. It is possible to create a computer that is smarter than humans, it just haven't been done due to its complexity and limited technology.   Edit: Also, I have explained the definition of free will several times already.

You say you don't believe in God because there's no proof, but you also say, '' It is possible to create a computer that is smarter than humans'', for which there is even less proof. No program has ever gone beyond input -> output, and there is nothing to suggest that there ever will be. There is no such thing as AI. Moreover, a computer being more 'intelligent' is such a hazy definition once again. Will it ever be conscious? No.

@EDIT. That's supposed to be in the OP. You expect everyone to go through all 100+ posts?

Of course there is no such thing as an AI as it has not been invented yet. But the existence of human brains (which consists of atoms) proves that creating intelligent life is possible, yet extremely complicated.

I never expected anyone to read through all posts. I did, however, for some reason expect everyone to know what free will means.

You are assuming that the human brain is the source of a man's consciousness.

I understand that this is the general idea as accepted by our 'modern academics', but there is zero proof for this hypothesis. At least there is no more proof than there is for a supreme creator.

There is not even an indication that AI can be created. There is not a single shred of evidence. No-one would even know where to start.

 Netyaroze said:@the1   Why are you so certain about everything ? As far as I have read the Thread there are no new or exciting ideas proposed.   Its nothing I and many others havent thought about at one point. Coincidentally I also thought with 18 that way. I just was totally sure the universe works like a clockwork. That for every action there is a reaction that will go exactly like predicted if you know all the factors. That the physicist just dont understand why particles dont react in the same manner. And that our Brain cant possibly have a free will because we just compute all the factors the same way and come to the same conclusion every time if we were given the same problem.  I was absolutely sure that the Human logic is flawless. Afterall it works perfectly on earth. Then I tried to understand relativity and I didnt like it. It made no sense because it was totally different than what I felt should have happend. How come if photons pass each other they dont add their velocity like if to cars pass each other. Normally its logical that if I drive 60kmh and the passing car also 60 kmh we pass each other with 120kmh. But if photons pass each other flying 300000 kms they dont pass each other with 600000 kms but with 300000 kms. makes zero sence at first but thats what really happens. And how come you can bend nothing/room. Whats bending there what is room even. . But this is reality confirmed a 1000 times.And Quantum theory is even more absurd and not logical to us humans. And the best thing put together it makes no sense at all. Our Human common sense is based on what we observe on earth but earth is just a tiny place in the universe with a specific set of rules that dont apply to all things in existence.   If you would have grown up in another world were for example things just randomly move without any cause and sometimes duplicate you would accept it as natural and just assume thats how reality works. Because you can see it. Sure just random is no good explanation but thats why they have many theorys to explain the random behaviour. Like Multiverse and maybe the free will is what ultimatively chooses what path you take.     Nobody knows if we can build a computer as smart as humans they just guess/hope. The Human Brain is the most complex object in the Universe (that we know of) and if we end up creating a being on a quantum computer and not an ordinary computer it wouldnt disprove free will. Actually we are past the point were Computers are slower than the brain. Theoretically a Super Computer should be able to atleast make a dogs brain. But we are on insect level. Who purely react there is a reason why we cant create true intelligence. In the 1980s/1990s people told us we will have Human intelligence in 2030.   This will be the 2nd fusion. It will always be in the next 50 years in our lifetime. The progress made up till now just looks like progress but underneath its a small step.   If everything is pre determined doesnt even matter but you dont even like the idea and there are not many reasons to believe in a deterministic universe right now. But a lot of stuff happens we cant explain and to brush everything off thinking the science community is just too stupid to recognize how the clock works is too easy. Just because it doesnt seem logical and they cant come up with explanations everybody understand ?  Its like demanding the universe/human mind to be simple enough to be explained with everydays logic.   Why dont you wait until later to form your opinion ? There is no reason to have a static world view this early in your life.

I don't have a static world view. In fact, this is the kind of response I was expecting. I wanted to be proven wrong, and this is the first great attempt.

I am well aware that our brain limits our way of drawing conclusions, but our brains is all we've got, and therefrom I'll draw my conclusions. I'm just saying that the OP offers a logical conclusion from my point of view, whether it's wrong or not.

Message to everyone: Remember that I gave you the option to say that "you'd prove me wrong" in the poll. That is what this thread is actually about, and I am most definitely open to change my world view.

 Dr.Grass said: You are assuming that the human brain is the source of a man's consciousness. I understand that this is the general idea as accepted by our 'modern academics', but there is zero proof for this hypothesis. At least there is no more proof than there is for a supreme creator. There is not even an indication that AI can be created. There is not a single shred of evidence. No-one would even know where to start.

I have absolutely no problem with you believing that humans have souls (or anything similar), just so you know.