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Forums - General Discussion - Ron Paul warns of a Fascist Takeover in America

Rath said:
badgenome said:
Rath said:

I don't believe it's really abridging freedom, I believe it leads to a more free and fair democracy.

If you look at the countries which rank highest in freedom indices - most of them actually have reasonably tough electoral spending laws.

You don't believe it's abridging freedom to tell a group that they can't release a movie?


Do you believe it's abridging freedom to tell someone they can't yell fire in a crowded theatre? Do you believe it's abridging freedom to tell someone they cannot lie to defame another person?

There are already limits on free speech based on the fact that not having those limits would abridge other freedoms. I believe that electoral laws that curtail spending are the only way to hold free and fair elections.

Yes, I do. However, it is not illegal to shout fire in a crowded theatre. If you do it under false pretenses, though, and people get hurt, you are liable. Ditto for libel and slander; damages have to be proven before action is taken against a person. It's a matter of balancing the freedoms of the speaker with the freedoms of everyone else. A person (or a group of people) saying things I don't like or expressing political opinions with which I disagree is not in any way infringing on my freedom, and that's all this is about.

Fundamentally there is no difference between the New York Times (a corporation) engaging in political speech and something like Wal-Mart (also a corporation) engaging in political speech. If the government were to tell the NYT to shut up, people would be incensed and rightly so, but many of the same people would be totally cool with Wal-Mart's ability to speak being squelched.



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badgenome said:
Mr Khan said:

The point is that there are quicker steps to take rather than radically reforming so many sectors of American governance, just radically reform one.

There would, i imagine, be other ways to end-run around citizens united without having to mess with the first amendment (namely making requirements across the board, universal caps on donations at a fairly low level).

Then there's the whole underlying question of whether speech is equal to money

There is already a cap on donations. Citizens United changed none of that. Again, all the Supreme Court decided in Citizens United is that the government can't infringe on the free expression of a group of people just because it's "too close" to an election or primary. So it is pretty clearly 100% about speech, and not at all about money.

Actually, I'd say it's all about politics. The same people who think allowing Hillary: The Movie to be aired or advertised within 30 days of a primary undermines the republic seemed to have no trouble whatsoever with Fahrenheit 9/11 being advertised and released on DVD within 30 days of the 2004 presidential election.

I wasn't aware that was what was at issue. I had assumed citizens united was about the ability of corporations to donate to Super PACs without limitations, anonymously.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

badgenome said:

Yes, I do. However, it is not illegal to shout fire in a crowded theatre. If you do it under false pretenses, though, and people get hurt, you are liable.


I am pretty sure that they can at least slap you with disturbing the peace or causing a panic fine even if no one was hurt.  There is a thing called noise complaint also which I've seen a few times cops responding to at parties.  Pretty much they want you to not cause a scene or get people riled up (riot).  So you are expected to go about your daily routine of being a slave of your debt.



Mr Khan said:

I wasn't aware that was what was at issue. I had assumed citizens united was about the ability of corporations to donate to Super PACs without limitations, anonymously.

A common assumption, but no. The Court explicitly upheld disclosure requirements.



sethnintendo said:
Moonhero said:
NintendoPie said:
Moonhero said:
Vote for Ron Paul so that America can finally add Canada as a state!!

No! I don't want Canada to end up as bad as USA. :|


USA is cool! Canada can be our fancy hat forever. ONE OF US! ONE OF US!


Be a lot easier to invade Mexico and boot them all out for our "living space".

Right. There's only 30+ million Mexican guerillas already stationed within your borders.



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sethnintendo said:
badgenome said:

Yes, I do. However, it is not illegal to shout fire in a crowded theatre. If you do it under false pretenses, though, and people get hurt, you are liable.


I am pretty sure that they can at least slap you with disturbing the peace or causing a panic fine even if no one was hurt.  There is a thing called noise complaint also which I've seen a few times cops responding to at parties.

Well, sure, cops can do a lot of shit, including things they're not supposed to do. But if somebody is shouting in a crowded theater for no reason, it shouldn't even get that far. The owners of the establishment should just have him bounced for ruining other customers' experience.



badgenome said:
 

Yes, I do. However, it is not illegal to shout fire in a crowded theatre. If you do it under false pretenses, though, and people get hurt, you are liable. Ditto for libel and slander; damages have to be proven before action is taken against a person. It's a matter of balancing the freedoms of the speaker with the freedoms of everyone else. A person (or a group of people) saying things I don't like or expressing political opinions with which I disagree is not in any way infringing on my freedom, and that's all this is about.

Fundamentally there is no difference between the New York Times (a corporation) engaging in political speech and something like Wal-Mart (also a corporation) engaging in political speech. If the government were to tell the NYT to shut up, people would be incensed and rightly so, but many of the same people would be totally cool with Wal-Mart's ability to speak being squelched.


They are fundamentally different. The key difference is that NYT is doing it as a member of the press.

Fox-News is fairly right-leaning. Watching Fox News they often advocate positions of the Republican party. That is ok. If Fox Corporation started funding advertisments for one of the candidates that would not be ok. Can you see the difference?



non-gravity said:
sethnintendo said:
Moonhero said:
NintendoPie said:
Moonhero said:
Vote for Ron Paul so that America can finally add Canada as a state!!

No! I don't want Canada to end up as bad as USA. :|


USA is cool! Canada can be our fancy hat forever. ONE OF US! ONE OF US!


Be a lot easier to invade Mexico and boot them all out for our "living space".

Right. There's only 30+ million Mexican guerillas already stationed within your borders.

That is why they are conscripted into the army first before the war then sent to Afghanistan while we bring our real troops back home.
 



Rath said:


They are fundamentally different. The key difference is that NYT is doing it as a member of the press.

Fox-News is fairly right-leaning. Watching Fox News they often advocate positions of the Republican party. That is ok. If Fox Corporation started funding advertisments for one of the candidates that would not be ok. Can you see the difference?

It's not at all different. Wal-Mart benefits from freedom of the press just as much as the New York Times does, although they have tended not to avail themselves of it simply because it's outside the scope of their business. But just as one doesn't have to literally own a printing press in order to claim freedom of the press, one needn't be a card carrying member of "The Press" to say whatever the fuck one wants about this or that douchenozzle politician. Wal-Mart doesn't suddenly gain that right if and only if they start publishing the Wal-Mart Times. They have it right now.



The world is way too economically interdependent to believe that if the US's military presence was removed, it would be massive war mongering and civil rights violations.

Regardless of what people actually believe, the US is still the largest economy in the world, by a wide margin. Our troops and bases in other countries are note the things keeping peace, it is the other countries wanting us to continue to buy their stuff. And regardless, you can fly across the Atlantic in a few hours, we could deploy troops to assist an invading ally in no time. He is definitely right about the lack of need for military bases.

People in other countries that say we shouldn't leave just want us there so they don't have to pay for it.

I think he is a little off base about the Fascism thing, in my opinion. Personal liberties wax and wane as society progresses and their values change. I would like to see a rewriting of the commerce clause in the constitution as it is completely RAPED to allow everything from the Fed, to the FCC, to the DEA, which were never the intention of the founders.

A bit more states being the laboratories of democracy would be great as well.



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