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Forums - Politics Discussion - WWII Thread (How come the West never gives the Soviets the credit they deserve)

Rath said:
MDMAniac said:

Mr Khan said:

The worst of Stalin's influence was over by that point. The most irrational stages of the purges came in the late 30s


They weren't that irrational though. USSR were getting ready themselves for future war, and so the purges were effectively aimed at the 5th column. They were rather resultative at this, which in turn was one of the factors in WW2. German military records mention themselves that their spying attempts against USSR weren't quite succesful. While Soviet command had much more reliable information about their enemies, almost each time.

They were also aimed at breaking the Church, breaking the will of the Ukrainians (the Holodomor) and getting rid of anybody who Stalin thought of as a potential enemy. He killed tens of millions, the vast majority of whom were not the fifth column of the Nazis.

 

Your frenzy is funny, have I said something? You're clearly flamebaited but don't blame it on me, pal. I didn't know so called Holodomor occured in late 30s which I and Mr.Khan were talking about. Unless you count from 10 to 1, if so I beg pardon.

I didn't know about tens(!) of millions killed by Stalin back then, either. As you revealed this divine truth to me, it's strange how they still had some people left after such massacre to fight with germans, lol.



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Marks said:
Kasz216 said:
Marks said:
Yeah I agree, USSR never gets the credit they deserve. I'm Canadian so all we learn about is Canada/USA/UK in the war.

I'm taking a course next year on the USSR in WWII so that should be interesting.

You may end up hating the soviets depending on if your a dog person.


Oh I'm well aware of the bad things they've done, I know they weren't much better than the Nazis. Like how they "liberated" many of the concentration camps but many of the people they "rescued" were actually just sent off to Russian camps where they were no better off. 

My friend, you are living in a country that used to be "Anti-Soviet" for almost 40 years. So of course that's all you would hear about the Soviets....

Interesting fact, Soviets liberated Aushwitz the biggest death camp in Europe. majority of the Jews were killed in that camp. Soviets gave them shelter/food even though they barely had enough for themselves. Later after ww2, those Jews were sent to the West for a better life.



I trust no one, not even myself.

Being Polish, I have a very specific point of view on the soviet help during the second world war.

I mean, Poland might have staved of the nazi forces a bit longer, maybe form a decent guerilla war, rallied our western allies, France and England, to actually move their asses and end the conflict before it actually went into high gear.

But those damn Russians attacked about 2 weeks after the first shot was taken in Gdansk. In addition the russians captured all remaining Polish AK forces (over 200 thousand soldiers and got rid of 22 000 officers in Katyn, so our whole higher army echelons got a bullet in the back of their head.

They came in and allowed the 2nd world war to evolve into the bloodbath we know as the greatest conflict in human history. the fact that the soviets had to later defend themselves against the nazis and gave the push needed to turn the tides of war is of course indisputable.

But they are not the heroes that you make them out to be.

45 yeas of communism instead of 45 years of freedom
45 years of terror instead of 45 years of peace
45 years of brainwashing instead of 45 years of truth
45 years of poverty instead of 45 years of economic growth

This is what the Soviet heroes gave Poland after they won the war.



If i lose access to this profile as well....I'm done with this site.....You've been warned!!.....whoever you are...

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FattyDingDong said:
Marks said:
Kasz216 said:
Marks said:
Yeah I agree, USSR never gets the credit they deserve. I'm Canadian so all we learn about is Canada/USA/UK in the war.

I'm taking a course next year on the USSR in WWII so that should be interesting.

You may end up hating the soviets depending on if your a dog person.


Oh I'm well aware of the bad things they've done, I know they weren't much better than the Nazis. Like how they "liberated" many of the concentration camps but many of the people they "rescued" were actually just sent off to Russian camps where they were no better off. 

My friend, you are living in a country that used to be "Anti-Soviet" for almost 40 years. So of course that's all you would hear about the Soviets....

Interesting fact, Soviets liberated Aushwitz the biggest death camp in Europe. majority of the Jews were killed in that camp. Soviets gave them shelter/food even though they barely had enough for themselves. Later after ww2, those Jews were sent to the West for a better life.


I didn't hear this from a Canadian history class my good sir, I took a trip to the Baltic States and Russia last summer and went to many museums and also visited the Stutthof concentration camp near Gdansk, Poland. The tour guide (and a short video we watched) talked about how when the Soviets "liberated" Stuffhof many of the people from the camp basically just became Soviet prisoners. They may not have been sent to death camps like with the Nazis but they certainly weren't sent back to their families or on vacation. 

Also one of the museums I went to in Riga, Latvia was all about Latvia under Nazi as well as Communist control and in many respects like under the Nazis was better than life under the USSR. Not if you were Jewish of course, but for the common non-Jewish citizen it was.

I don't remember exact details, but I remember the big picture, and it was that the Soviets were horrible leaders and made life worse in almost every possible way for the countries they occupied.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your OP, the war more than likely would have been lost if Hitler hadn't attacked Russia. Russia was vital to the allies winning the war. And they definitely don't get the credit they deserve as far as their war effort is concerned. 



I agree that the perception of WWII is unbalanced.

For example, as a child I was personally not very interested in WWII, as it was something that happened already several decades before I was even born. The only "knowledge" I had about it was from school, movies etc.

What I remember however is that because most WWII-based-movies concentrate strictly on US soldiers, western germany was (and still is) crowded with US soldiers etc., I was as a kid somehow under the impression that the USA was pretty much the only army fighting Germany. Likewise, because of the plethora of holocaust movies, and german school education about the nazis focussing pretty much solely on the holocaust, I was somewhat under the impression that the only noteworthy victims of WWII were 6 million jews.

So personally I'd blame a lot of my own unbalanced childhood perception of WWII on the somewhat limited focus of american-made WWII-movies that made me believe "WWII = D-Day + Auschwitz"...



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Rath said:

They were also aimed at breaking the Church, breaking the will of the Ukrainians (the Holodomor) and getting rid of anybody who Stalin thought of as a potential enemy. He killed tens of millions, the vast majority of whom were not the fifth column of the Nazis.

 

@mrstickball. All we're doing is trading speculation now really, it's not likely to go anywhere.

Thats fine, but most historians and leaders agree that all three allies were needed to win. How it would of went down with a neutral US probably makes for a good Hearts of Iron 3 scenario.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Marks said:
FattyDingDong said:
Marks said:
Kasz216 said:
Marks said:
Yeah I agree, USSR never gets the credit they deserve. I'm Canadian so all we learn about is Canada/USA/UK in the war.

I'm taking a course next year on the USSR in WWII so that should be interesting.

You may end up hating the soviets depending on if your a dog person.


Oh I'm well aware of the bad things they've done, I know they weren't much better than the Nazis. Like how they "liberated" many of the concentration camps but many of the people they "rescued" were actually just sent off to Russian camps where they were no better off. 

My friend, you are living in a country that used to be "Anti-Soviet" for almost 40 years. So of course that's all you would hear about the Soviets....

Interesting fact, Soviets liberated Aushwitz the biggest death camp in Europe. majority of the Jews were killed in that camp. Soviets gave them shelter/food even though they barely had enough for themselves. Later after ww2, those Jews were sent to the West for a better life.


I didn't hear this from a Canadian history class my good sir, I took a trip to the Baltic States and Russia last summer and went to many museums and also visited the Stutthof concentration camp near Gdansk, Poland. The tour guide (and a short video we watched) talked about how when the Soviets "liberated" Stuffhof many of the people from the camp basically just became Soviet prisoners. They may not have been sent to death camps like with the Nazis but they certainly weren't sent back to their families or on vacation. 

Also one of the museums I went to in Riga, Latvia was all about Latvia under Nazi as well as Communist control and in many respects like under the Nazis was better than life under the USSR. Not if you were Jewish of course, but for the common non-Jewish citizen it was.

I don't remember exact details, but I remember the big picture, and it was that the Soviets were horrible leaders and made life worse in almost every possible way for the countries they occupied.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your OP, the war more than likely would have been lost if Hitler hadn't attacked Russia. Russia was vital to the allies winning the war. And they definitely don't get the credit they deserve as far as their war effort is concerned. 

That may be true but not if you are a slavic person meaning if you are (Russian,Ukranian,Polish,Serbian,Slovakian,Czech). Because Hitler despised Slavic people, he ordered his army generals to treat them very harshly which is why most of the Slavs chose to fight against the Nazis and form Partisan groups.Hitler ordered that for every 1 dead german, 100 Slavic civilians would be shot.  But if you were a Latvian,Estonian you would be treated fairly by the Germans. Communists treated every one the same. Nazism was only better than Communism if u were not from a "LOWER RACE" "Untermensch"



I trust no one, not even myself.

MDMAniac said:
Rath said:
MDMAniac said:

Mr Khan said:

The worst of Stalin's influence was over by that point. The most irrational stages of the purges came in the late 30s


They weren't that irrational though. USSR were getting ready themselves for future war, and so the purges were effectively aimed at the 5th column. They were rather resultative at this, which in turn was one of the factors in WW2. German military records mention themselves that their spying attempts against USSR weren't quite succesful. While Soviet command had much more reliable information about their enemies, almost each time.

They were also aimed at breaking the Church, breaking the will of the Ukrainians (the Holodomor) and getting rid of anybody who Stalin thought of as a potential enemy. He killed tens of millions, the vast majority of whom were not the fifth column of the Nazis.

 

Your frenzy is funny, have I said something? You're clearly flamebaited but don't blame it on me, pal. I didn't know so called Holodomor occured in late 30s which I and Mr.Khan were talking about. Unless you count from 10 to 1, if so I beg pardon.

I didn't know about tens(!) of millions killed by Stalin back then, either. As you revealed this divine truth to me, it's strange how they still had some people left after such massacre to fight with germans, lol.

Frenzy? That wasn't written in even the slightest bit of anger actually. You're right in saying that the Holodomor was not part of the great purge of the late 30's. It is worth reading the Wikipedia article about said purge and who it was aimed against http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

 

And yes, tens of millions were killed by Stalin, before during and after the war. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#cite_note-107

http://www.jstor.org/pss/151137



Really I think that the sacrifice of all soldiers should be remembered. Russians may not get the crdeit they deserve in USA but I think it is also important to remember the bravery of everyone?

How much thought is given to the chineese for example? hardly any. Same too for those from the british and French colonies. Even German troops deserve recognition for thei bravery



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yanamaster said:

Being Polish, I have a very specific point of view on the soviet help during the second world war.

I mean, Poland might have staved of the nazi forces a bit longer, maybe form a decent guerilla war, rallied our western allies, France and England, to actually move their asses and end the conflict before it actually went into high gear.

But those damn Russians attacked about 2 weeks after the first shot was taken in Gdansk. In addition the russians captured all remaining Polish AK forces (over 200 thousand soldiers and got rid of 22 000 officers in Katyn, so our whole higher army echelons got a bullet in the back of their head.

They came in and allowed the 2nd world war to evolve into the bloodbath we know as the greatest conflict in human history. the fact that the soviets had to later defend themselves against the nazis and gave the push needed to turn the tides of war is of course indisputable.

But they are not the heroes that you make them out to be.

45 yeas of communism instead of 45 years of freedom
45 years of terror instead of 45 years of peace
45 years of brainwashing instead of 45 years of truth
45 years of poverty instead of 45 years of economic growth

This is what the Soviet heroes gave Poland after they won the war.


Interesting how people ignored this comment.

Here is an interesting fact. A few times we have had Russian old historic naval ships visit Australia and people could go on board and see them.  A few of the sailers said to me do you like how the russians build ships when I was o nbaord exploring. Ironically they had a made in Poland plate on them. Makes you wonder how they got these ships.