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Forums - Politics Discussion - Do you believe equality and equal treatment under a law to be undesirable?

mchaza said:
Tho majorly off topic, for the first step in becoming equal is to create a global currency and start it from the bottom, (aka like in the old days with cents and dollars being of higher value then now) then once thats in it will help form a global economy. Thats the first thing to do.


Seen the Euro much lately?

A global currency can not be successful unless a global government came first.

 

As for the rest of your post, your sadly mistaken for one main reason.

 

If people were in the mindset to work in a communist system....

a communist system would be completely unneeded since the people would be doing this themselves.

Which is why the original Marxist doctrin called just for that... once people were in the mindset of living for the "community" government has no further need to exist.   Not living for the state... which is facism.

It's what is labeled now a days as Anarco-communism.  However, I don't believe direct democracy was a point of the original communism rather more a "Everyoen does what they think is best for the state" type situation.   Anarco-Communism is actually what you can see being practiced by the Occupy Wallstreet movement at the moment.  Most likely it will breakdown because people will vote for their interests rather then the groups interests and end up with a tyranny of the majority situation.

As for modern day Marxism....

"If this is Marxism, I am not a Marxist"

-Karl Marx.



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mchaza said:
In the Perfect world, the most perfect Ideology is Communism in its purest of form, you cannot lie, if you read the origins of communism there is nothing wrong in have that unless you are reading it from the perspective of a rich person. The reason why it broke down in Russia or never implemented well was many factors but one factor over all societies is that people want to be rich because we are greed driven beings. This is why Capitalism is so popular is because whiles is terribly unforgiving when it comes to being poor especially in pure capitalism is that while there is the Super Rich living the high life, the reason why the poor dont up rise and distribute there wealth is because that its open so that anyone can become super rich like them and its not limited to status, class, religion or race, anyone can live it up.

Currently I believe the best government type going around at the moment is the middle ground Socialism-Capitalism mix like Australia have and many other countries where there is free health care, free education, free housing all paid by the tax paper but you can go it alone and own you own things and become rich.

Tho majorly off topic, for the first step in becoming equal is to create a global currency and start it from the bottom, (aka like in the old days with cents and dollars being of higher value then now) then once thats in it will help form a global economy. Thats the first thing to do.

Communism is a horribly broken concept that could never work ...

At its core Communism requires the elimination of personal choices and freedoms in economic activities in exchange for having an economy that is centrally planned, and fights against the nature of mankind by eliminating all incentives in the economy.

You want to be an artist? Too bad, you get to be a janitor because some central planner arbitrarily decided that you get to be the person who cleans the toilets.

You don’t like the bland oat cereal called "Lenin O’s"? Too bad, because that is the only cereal that the central planner thought should be made.
You like playing videogames? Too bad, videogames don’t exist because a central planner decided the only use for computers was for doing engineering calculations.

You want to work hard and sacrifice so you can move out of your cramped living conditions and into a nice neighbourhood? Too bad, everyone has to live in the same cramped in-adequate housing.

 

In a true free market economy if you see a problem you can fix it and get rewarded because of your contribution ... In a communist system that isn't possible.



sapphi_snake said:
Joelcool7 said:

This is the very danger of atheism and the belief that humans are just another animal. Fact of the matter is if humans behave like animals the human race will collapse. Their has to be a moral basis in society that which was provided by the Abrahamic faiths largely Christianity. The idea of looking out for yourself and not valuing those around you will lead to Doomsday.

Considering that the people who support conservative christian organizations are the ones who have the image of 'greedy' and that when christianity was in power (Middle Ages) a strong anti-equality class system was in place, I think you're terribly out of line. It's precisely the authoritarian systems who preach 'morality' (e.g. the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages, Communism) who are the least moral of them all.

You use the middle ages however the church at the time preached very little actual morality. The church was perverse and used the Bible for political means and to control and mobilize the people. At the time the average citizen couldn't actually read the Bible and the church used that. Note I am not Catholic, fact is that the moral basis we modern day countries are founded on is based in the Bible.

The penal code the UN's humanitarian laws. In fact remove religion all together and where is the basis for any laws? What makes one thing right and another wrong? If all humans are animals why should we care about one another? If we don't care about one another what would happen to modern society?

Also what makes what the Catholic Church did during the Middle Ages any worse then what any other empire did? The Persians the moors etc....etc... Christianity was still growing and as I said the people couldn't even read the Bible. Fact is you cannot judge Christianity entirely based on one time period and one group of people (Catholics).

If we want to follow that logic what about Atheist China or the brutality carried out in the name of exterminating religion in the Soveit Union?

You can't judge an entire belief system on the acts of a few. Authoritarian Governments around the world use any method they can to control their people. If it means bastardizing a religion they do if it means convincing the population God doesn't exist then they do.

But fact is that modern society is built upon the principles laid out in the Bible.



-JC7

"In God We Trust - In Games We Play " - Joel Reimer

 

mchaza said:
In the Perfect world, the most perfect Ideology is Communism, but only if you happen to be an ant.

Fixed.

And the reason the poor don't rise up is that, generally speaking, they're either too lazy (which is why they're poor in the first place) or too distracted by their iPhones, vidya games, and recreational substance abuse (which really puts their "poverty" in perspective).



RCTjunkie said:
I believe in equal opportunity, not equal results.

This, very much this. I didn't even know my views could be summed up so nicely.



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Joelcool7 said:

This is the very danger of atheism and the belief that humans are just another animal. Fact of the matter is if humans behave like animals the human race will collapse. Their has to be a moral basis in society that which was provided by the Abrahamic faiths largely Christianity. The idea of looking out for yourself and not valuing those around you will lead to Doomsday.

...


okay, wtf?!?  why you got to troll me bro?  that bit was terribly unneeded and unrelated to the rest of your post...



HappySqurriel said:

Communism is a horribly broken concept that could never work ...

At its core Communism requires the elimination of personal choices and freedoms in economic activities in exchange for having an economy that is centrally planned, and fights against the nature of mankind by eliminating all incentives in the economy.

You want to be an artist? Too bad, you get to be a janitor because some central planner arbitrarily decided that you get to be the person who cleans the toilets.

You don’t like the bland oat cereal called "Lenin O’s"? Too bad, because that is the only cereal that the central planner thought should be made.
You like playing videogames? Too bad, videogames don’t exist because a central planner decided the only use for computers was for doing engineering calculations.

In a true free market economy if you see a problem you can fix it and get rewarded because of your contribution ... In a communist system that isn't possible.

Economic systems, planned or not, have a way to get people to do things they don't want to do as a career.  In a totally free market driven system, a person may want to be an artist, but if the market doesn't care he is an artist (say you are in a world like Idiocracy had where the people watch buttocks on the screen for 2 hours), then the market will say, "You need to find something else to do".  The difference is that, in a planned economy there is a said "genius" at top that plans out everything.  In an unplanned economy, you run into hiring managers and computer systems that tell you whether or not you get hired and you have to guess what the market wants.

Like, golly gee, I would like to make a living creating boardgames.  Well, as it is now, you don't make a living creating board games, because the money is too low to do that.  To try to pitch the "freedom to choose" as some sort of thing anyone can do, which would fix every ill is to totally misrepresent how markets work.



richardhutnik said:

Economic systems, planned or not, have a way to get people to do things they don't want to do as a career.  In a totally free market driven system, a person may want to be an artist, but if the market doesn't care he is an artist (say you are in a world like Idiocracy had where the people watch buttocks on the screen for 2 hours), then the market will say, "You need to find something else to do".  The difference is that, in a planned economy there is a said "genius" at top that plans out everything.  In an unplanned economy, you run into hiring managers and computer systems that tell you whether or not you get hired and you have to guess what the market wants.

Like, golly gee, I would like to make a living creating boardgames.  Well, as it is now, you don't make a living creating board games, because the money is too low to do that.  To try to pitch the "freedom to choose" as some sort of thing anyone can do, which would fix every ill is to totally misrepresent how markets work.

Freedom to choose doesn't mean that you're entitled to succeed, naturally, since consumers are also free and will rebuff an artist whose work they dislike or can't relate to. But it does mean that you have the freedom to try your hand at whatever you want, whereas in a planned economy, you simply don't.

By the same token, supporting free markets doesn't necessitate seeing the free market as the cure for all ills. It only requires that a person come to the realization that centrally planned economies always fail spectacularly because it would take a God-like intelligence to manage such things, and of course, no such person exists or ever shall.



Kasz216 said:

Yeah, it's called being a fictional book.

The problem with Soma and pleasure by distraction is two fold.

1) Drugs don't effect people the same way.

2)  Distraction by amusement doesn't work, because everytime your working your crappy unimportant job, your not being amused.

Outside which, living in the Brave New World society would just be horrifying.  I mean, Huxley's whole point was that such a society was on it's way down the pipes and should be avoided at all costs.

If he saw the world today he'd probably think we were well on our way to such a society.  For example, I currently work in one of the areas in the country with the largest unemployment rate in the country in Las Vegas.  In the area by where I work I think it's something like 14%?   Though I'd say over half of my customers are unemployed, it's easy to tell because unemployment debit cards look different from regular ones.

They all come in, take money off their unemployment cards and throw them in the slot machines hoping to get rich.  They're upset with their lives but also generally apathetic because they get enough money to eat and to fuel their hopes of hitting the "Big One". 

However would see the Tea Party and Occupy Wallstreet movements are the exact reasons why it won't work out in the end.  People want more then just distraction.

Heck, even look at the communist Utopia of Star Trek, they have jealousy.

 

That's not to say such a society couldn't work.  It just couldn't work with humans.  Even in the most "community" based societies there was more then enough indivualism out there to make such a system useless.  Even in an area where confusinism ruled there would be a large amount of jealousy and discontent over who could help the state best.


Oh, and additionally.... Brave New World is about fascism, not communism.

Outside Soma you could argue hitler's gameplay was page for page out of that book.  Though instead of Henry Ford he wanted to replace Germany itself as a sort of god like figure that replaced all relgions.

If I remember correctly, Huxley himself states the main difference between Nazi Germany and a Brave New World was that technology was more advanced in his book.

 

Food for anyone who actually thinks that would be an ideal society.  Of course, some people think "The World Stood Still" was a utopian tale as well...

When it was about a Giant Robot who murdered anyone who did anything so mildly violent as slapping someone.

To be fair the movie did release in 1951 but i mean... still!

I'm well aware that it's a fiction book, I wasn't beign serious with it.

BTW, I don't know if you've read it (I remember you saying that you don't like reading fiction), but soma wasn't used to make people enojoy their role in society unjealously. Eugenics (which would've been replaced with genetic engineering had Huxley written the book at a later time), segregation and indoctrination were. Eugenics was used to make sure the people from a certain cast were all similar physically and intellectually (cloning was actually used for the non-Alpha and Betas, so they'd be the same), the indoctrination started since birth, and was used to convince people that their cast was the best, and all other casts were bad, and the segregation was used to make sure people of different casts didn't interact with eachother (they were actually made to develop a repulsion for anyone not of their cast).

The only 'jealous' person in the whole book was Bernard, and that was because of an accident while he was concieved, that made him be inferior physically to the other Alphas. Add the fact that there were no diseases, famine, poverty etc., and even the lowest of the low didn't have to face the hardship that poor people face nowadays. The only issue in that society was trying to get people to accept their role, which was only an issue for the Alphas who were intelligent, as everyone else was too dumb to be able to contemplate such matters (not to mention that, as I said before, there were no real hardships).



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

HappySqurriel said:

Communism is a horribly broken concept that could never work ...

At its core Communism requires the elimination of personal choices and freedoms in economic activities in exchange for having an economy that is centrally planned, and fights against the nature of mankind by eliminating all incentives in the economy.

You want to be an artist? Too bad, you get to be a janitor because some central planner arbitrarily decided that you get to be the person who cleans the toilets.

You don’t like the bland oat cereal called "Lenin O’s"? Too bad, because that is the only cereal that the central planner thought should be made.
You like playing videogames? Too bad, videogames don’t exist because a central planner decided the only use for computers was for doing engineering calculations.

You want to work hard and sacrifice so you can move out of your cramped living conditions and into a nice neighbourhood? Too bad, everyone has to live in the same cramped in-adequate housing.

 

In a true free market economy if you see a problem you can fix it and get rewarded because of your contribution ... In a communist system that isn't possible.

Well, that's only if you're one of the common folks. The people high up in the party lived in palaces.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)