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Forums - Politics Discussion - Do you believe equality and equal treatment under a law to be undesirable?

This is the very danger of atheism and the belief that humans are just another animal. Fact of the matter is if humans behave like animals the human race will collapse. Their has to be a moral basis in society that which was provided by the Abrahamic faiths largely Christianity. The idea of looking out for yourself and not valuing those around you will lead to Doomsday.

Lets explain why the US Government and other democratic Governments need to try and limit poverty. From a non-ethical basis.

A- The poor people make up a huge part of the population. They are the ones who will work for pennies and keep the economy running. Supporting some who can't find employment ensures you have a work force in the future.

B- Crime rates, if you let such a huge portion of the population starve and go hungry they will turn to crime to get their needs met. They won't simply die in a corner they will go down fighting. This means robberies of all sorts the rich people who are supposedly the strong will see their wealth pillaged.

C-Votes, the poor make up a huge population and if your party wants to win an election and rule the country then it needs the support of the middle and lower class. The ones who are being supported by welfare will vote for you and keep you in office. To stop welfare would mean you would never be elected again. So the only way to do so would be to suspend democracy and find a way for the poor not to have a say in Government.

D- Strongest survive right? Well all those brains and all the brawn in the world isn't going to protect you from millions upon millions of angry citizens. The best and most well equiped army in the world could not control the United States if the poor in the country rose up and over threw the Government. It would be like Arab spring the people would capture or kill the wealthy and the Government would be defeated. The mighty US army would be brought to its knees. Then anyone taking control would need to bring stability and money to the poor if they failed they too would be toppled. The cycle would go on and on and the western world would fall into chaos.

E-The world has an image of the US and other European countries as actually caring about their citizens and the people of other countries. If America turned on its citizens and had an uprising another country would gladly come in and take over. The US Government could not control its people or its enemies it would collapse.

But thats just addressing why a democracy can't remove all social services. A dictator would need to crack down with an iron fist and commit horrible acts of genocide in order to even have a chance at cutting social services completely and maintaining power. All rights of all citizens would need to be retracted and communism would have to be introduced.

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Now lets address this whole humans should be treated as animals thing. Well buddy in many countries the poor unemployed rose up and slaughtered the wealthy. If you want to treat others like animals expect them to return the favor and I can guarantee it won't end good for you.

All the laws we currently follow would fall apart if we were to treat every other human as an animal. You could say you'd get followers and establish rule of law for your own benefit. But guess what, your followers would be waiting for any chance they could to knock you off and take your place. Then there are all the other leaders who would garner followers they would all be after what ever wealth you have to maintain their followers. If they failed to appease their followers they too would be bumped off.

So you would be worried every day of those who follow you and your enemies. Their would be no such thing as loyalty because everyone is out for themselves. You fail to deliver to your followers and soon you won't have any if you still are alive. Without followers you become the weakest link and die off.

Remember if we are to behave like animals and drop any belief that humans are in any way superior. Society will collapse the whole world would collapse. Eventually leaders would have to turn back to the morals laid out in the Bible whether directly or indirectly. They would need to establish rule of law and create a moral basis that would protect their interests.

It would end up with the value of human life coming back. Without it the whole world would collapse. A good example would be "Book of Eli" that is what would happen to the world.



-JC7

"In God We Trust - In Games We Play " - Joel Reimer

 

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richardhutnik said:
HappySqurriel said:

We live in a society where a small portion of the population puts in the work to develop the necessary skills, takes the risks and makes the personal sacrifices to build what is necessary and desired in the economy. Why should we have equality of outcomes when people are so unwilling to share the effort that is required to provide those outcomes?

State your definition of "take the risks".  My understanding of risk is that it is a form of a calculated gamble that may or may not work out, and the bigger the risk, the more likely you are to have down side that is bad if it doesn't work out. 

So, do you stand by the video in stating that people who are disadvantaged should die, just like animals?


Maybe you should read my post where I clearly stated:

"While it is completely reasonable to take care of those individuals who have physical, mental or emotional reasons why they cannot become productive members of society, and society should ensure that the most basic necessities of life are not denied to anyone regardless of the choices they make, those individuals who put in the work, develop the skills, take on the risk, and make the personal sacrifices to build what is necessary and desired in our economy should be able to be rewarded for their contribution; and those individuals who refuse to make those choices should not be able to steal their rewards through tyranny of the majority."



HappySqurriel said:

We live in a society where a small portion of the population puts in the work to develop the necessary skills, takes the risks and makes the personal sacrifices to build what is necessary and desired in the economy. Why should we have equality of outcomes when people are so unwilling to share the effort that is required to provide those outcomes?

This is a concept that is fairly commonly taught to children and they seem to be able to understand, but after years in "public" education and liberal universities the lesson has been lost; so I will re-teach it with the same story that was used when I was a child.

I completely agree with Happy Squrriel, however notice he does not say humans should be treated like animals. He simply says someone doing less work and who is contributing less to society doesn't deserve to get the same wages as those who contribute more. I am unemployed and don't expect to get the income of someone employed full time, I have a mental disability which disadvantages me. However even I try to find work and am constantly contributing society by volunteering and donating as much as I can.

Fact is as Happy Squrriel says later all humans deserve the basics. No they don't deserve equal treatment as those who contribute far more to society. But every single person deserves the opportunity to succeed. No citizen should die in a country that generates so much income especially those that contribute to society.

Now I think the social services system should make volunteering mandatory. Every citizen getting a check should be contributing to society. If that means logging at least ten hours of volunteer work a week that would be sufficient for enough money to survive. Maybe drug testing should be mandatory to prove your not going to spend your welfare check illegally on a habit that will only burden society. If the person has a drug problem they have to seek treatment before they can apply again.

In the end all humans deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Those who contribute more to society should benefit more from society. All citizens should contribute to society in some way, in fact those welfare dollars are pumped straight back into businesses which in turn ends up right back in the economy feeding those who worked so hard.



-JC7

"In God We Trust - In Games We Play " - Joel Reimer

 

I do find treating people equally under the law undesirable to some degree....

because if we did we wouldn't have welfare at all.  Which just feels wrong, espiecally for those born retarded or who are physically disabled.

I think the problem people tend to have is they coflate what's fair with what's moral.

Welfare isn't fair or "just", however it's morale.

 

It's all a matter of deciding how unfair a society you want and how unfairly you want to treat some people so you can fit what you believe is moral, preferably taking into account things like future economic development when considering this as well, since not only are you usually burdening the present with welfare but the future as well.

It's a tough balancing act on something that's subjective.

 

To have true equality you can't play favorites with any group or demographic and only allow people to rely on their skills to survive.



Equality is a perversion of the natural order!…It binds the strong to the weak. They [the weak] become anchors that drag the exceptional down to mediocrity. Individuals destined and deserving of greatness have it denied them. They [the strong] suffer for the sake of keeping them even with their inferiors.



"I like my steaks how i like my women.  Bloody and all over my face"

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MrBubbles said:
Equality is a perversion of the natural order!…It binds the strong to the weak. They [the weak] become anchors that drag the exceptional down to mediocrity. Individuals destined and deserving of greatness have it denied them. They [the strong] suffer for the sake of keeping them even with their inferiors.


If I know one thing it is that strength is fleeting.  Nobody but nobody stays strong forever.  Yes equality is a perversion of the natural order but then so is civilization itself.  We are humans not animals, our compassion and respect of fellow humans is one of the few great things about our species.  For now I am strong but when I eventually grow weak it is good to know that thanks to the compassion of others I won't be decimated because of it.



maximus22 said:
MrBubbles said:
Equality is a perversion of the natural order!…It binds the strong to the weak. They [the weak] become anchors that drag the exceptional down to mediocrity. Individuals destined and deserving of greatness have it denied them. They [the strong] suffer for the sake of keeping them even with their inferiors.


If I know one thing it is that strength is fleeting.  Nobody but nobody stays strong forever.  Yes equality is a perversion of the natural order but then so is civilization itself.  We are humans not animals, our compassion and respect of fellow humans is one of the few great things about our species.  For now I am strong but when I eventually grow weak it is good to know that thanks to the compassion of others I won't be decimated because of it.




Kasz216 said:
maximus22 said:
MrBubbles said:
Equality is a perversion of the natural order!…It binds the strong to the weak. They [the weak] become anchors that drag the exceptional down to mediocrity. Individuals destined and deserving of greatness have it denied them. They [the strong] suffer for the sake of keeping them even with their inferiors.


If I know one thing it is that strength is fleeting.  Nobody but nobody stays strong forever.  Yes equality is a perversion of the natural order but then so is civilization itself.  We are humans not animals, our compassion and respect of fellow humans is one of the few great things about our species.  For now I am strong but when I eventually grow weak it is good to know that thanks to the compassion of others I won't be decimated because of it.


I couldn't bother listening to the whole thing, but how in the world is being anti-welfare the same thing as being against equal treatment under the law? Surely the person receiving welfare is being given preferential treatment under the law compared to the person who is paying into the system since the government takes from one and gives to the other.



badgenome said:

 

I couldn't bother listening to the whole thing, but how in the world is being anti-welfare the same thing as being against equal treatment under the law? Surely the person receiving welfare is being given preferential treatment under the law compared to the person who is paying into the system since the government takes from one and gives to the other.

I assumed that this thread was referring to the laws being applied the same to all people (e.g. the penalty for murder is the same whether you're some beggar, or a aristocrat).



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Joelcool7 said:

This is the very danger of atheism and the belief that humans are just another animal. Fact of the matter is if humans behave like animals the human race will collapse. Their has to be a moral basis in society that which was provided by the Abrahamic faiths largely Christianity. The idea of looking out for yourself and not valuing those around you will lead to Doomsday.

Considering that the people who support conservative christian organizations are the ones who have the image of 'greedy' and that when christianity was in power (Middle Ages) a strong anti-equality class system was in place, I think you're terribly out of line. It's precisely the authoritarian systems who preach 'morality' (e.g. the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages, Communism) who are the least moral of them all.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)