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The FairTax, Join in!

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Eomund said:
 

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2007/01/data/weorept.aspx?sy=2006&ey=2008&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=512%2C941%2C914%2C446%2C612%2C666%2C614%2C668%2C311%2C672%2C213%2C946%2C911%2C137%2C193%2C962%2C122%2C674%2C912%2C676%2C313%2C548%2C419%2C556%2C513%2C678%2C316%2C181%2C913%2C682%2C124%2C684%2C339%2C273%2C638%2C921%2C514%2C948%2C218%2C686%2C963%2C688%2C616%2C518%2C223%2C728%2C516%2C558%2C918%2C138%2C748%2C196%2C618%2C278%2C522%2C692%2C622%2C694%2C156%2C142%2C624%2C449%2C626%2C564%2C628%2C283%2C228%2C853%2C924%2C288%2C233%2C293%2C632%2C566%2C636%2C964%2C634%2C182%2C238%2C453%2C662%2C968%2C960%2C922%2C423%2C714%2C935%2C862%2C128%2C716%2C611%2C456%2C321%2C722%2C243%2C965%2C248%2C718%2C469%2C724%2C253%2C576%2C642%2C936%2C643%2C961%2C939%2C813%2C644%2C199%2C819%2C184%2C172%2C524%2C132%2C361%2C646%2C362%2C648%2C364%2C915%2C732%2C134%2C366%2C652%2C734%2C174%2C144%2C328%2C146%2C258%2C463%2C656%2C528%2C654%2C923%2C336%2C738%2C263%2C578%2C268%2C537%2C532%2C742%2C944%2C866%2C176%2C369%2C534%2C744%2C536%2C186%2C429%2C925%2C178%2C746%2C436%2C926%2C136%2C466%2C343%2C112%2C158%2C111%2C439%2C298%2C916%2C927%2C664%2C846%2C826%2C299%2C542%2C582%2C443%2C474%2C917%2C754%2C544%2C698&s=NGDPD&grp=0&a=&pr.x=32&pr.y=4

CountrySubject DescriptorUnitsScale
200620072008
United StatesGross domestic product, current pricesU.S. dollarsBillions
13,244.55013,770.30914,418.482


So the 2007 GDP of the US is $13.77 Trillion and 22% of the embedded taxes alone = over $3 trillion in current taxes.

The FairTax : $13.77 trillion @ 23% = over $3 trillion in taxes raised.

Hrmm... Taxes will still be the same amount raised. There is no magic to it, just simple math.


 except the 23% of GDP is not your tax revenue.  GDP is not income, wealth, spending, or anything like that.



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Sqrl said:
phil said:
Sqrl said:
Just for the record, a lot of very wealthy Americans are already moving out of the country to various non-extradition South American countries. The rich have the means to pick up and leave, all you have to do is give them a motive.

This whole idea that 10% of people should pay for 90% of the taxes or whatever the percentages are is going to fail once that 10% says "F this!". I actually know people who plan on moving to Ecuador, they invited me to come down and help pick a house with them. These people aren't filthy rich either, together they make about 240k a year. Where did they get the idea? Other wealthy people they are friends with.

The idea that the minority pay for the majority is great so long as you're majority. Just keep on pushing these people away, lets see what that does to the economy.

Seeing as to how the top 20% of America controls over 90% of the country's wealth, it's only fair that they pay over 90% of the taxes. If they wanna move offshore and say "F This," then the state can go ahead and say "F you back." I'm sure there's someone who wouldn't mind doing their job for half their pay.

Uhm you do realise that a lot of the people we are talking about have job titles of "investor" right? I don't know many people who are willing to take over another investors stake at half the profits considering they would still be responisble for the same amount of risk. Which really this is what this boils down to. Investors are what keep economies from stagnating, put up money for new business, and new products, or ideas.

I don't think you really understand what the 20% of Americans do with their wealth that makes them so wealthy or you would have gotten this point to start with. If a meaningful percentage of that 20% decides to head for greener pastures then this country is in serious trouble. The simple fact is that if 90% of this countries wealth picks up and leaves there aren't going to be jobs for many of us. But to be clear I don't think all of them are actually going to leave.

I'm simply making the point that we need them a lot more than they need us and they are actually willing to pay more than the average person. Thats part of the disconnect here. Anyone who doesn't recognize that the rich need to pay more for the system to work is deluding themselves, so lets be clear on that. I disagree that they should have to pay more but basic economics dictates that they have to..they absolutely must. What isn't so clear cut however is the amount they should be paying.


@topic at large:

Here is my problem with the anti-FairTax position:

It seems the major idea behind the opposition is picking at the details, and I actually think this is a good thing if the intentions are fair-minded. A tax system needs to be picked apart and rebuilt time and again before it is ready to be instated. But what I don't get is that just about everyone (let me know if you don't) thinks that the current system is awful.

So, to me it seems that we should be looking for a new system, we should be tearing apart the FairTax and pointing out its problems, and we should then fix those problems and put it back together in a way that will work.

The key a lot of people are missing(imo) is to realise that not every market sector is going to benefit from a new system. A tax system is going to favor some market sectors over others and there is no way around that. A change in tax systems is going to require some people to find new jobs..again, no way around it. But neither of those things by themselves should be a detterant to not implementing a better system. Both of those things are going to cause short-term issues as the market rebalances itself in its new environment...but after that its life as usual.

Really I don't want to argue about the nitty gritty details, its enough for me to leave it up to the experts so long as everyone can agree that what we have now is simply atrocious. Hopefully they can come up with something a lot simpler than what we have now.

To everyone in the thread: Are you happy with the current system or do you think we need a new system (even if that new system isn't the fair tax)?


 We need to overhaul the system, but Fair tax or flat tax are not the answers



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Well said Sqrl,

I would echo that point by saying if you don't like the current tax structure, and most don't, what would your solution be?

I believe this is a viable alternative, but not perfect, no system will be. It is however in my opinion better than what we have and until another better solution comes along, this one has my vote.



Greer said:
Well said Sqrl,

I would echo that point by saying if you don't like the current tax structure, and most don't, what would your solution be?

I believe this is a viable alternative, but not perfect, no system will be. It is however in my opinion better than what we have and until another better solution comes along, this one has my vote.

Of all the tax proposals I am familiar with, a progressive income tax still makes the most sense to me.  That doesn't mean that the progressive income tax we have now isn't hideously byzantine. 

I just want to replace a leaky, patches-on-the-patches boat with a new boat, instead of a flying car. 

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Final Fan,

On that note, I can respect and agree with you, at least we have some common ground that there is a problem that needs fixing.

The disagreement is over what would work best, I'll respect your opinion and agree to disagree with you on the best solution.

I'm out of this thread, between this and Galaki, I've had enough politics for one day.



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@Greer,

I'm pretty much with you on that one, I just wanted to point out that we do all have common ground and that a solution should be the goal not just endless debate which is very very easy to get sucked into and I'm sure we are all guilty of.



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Greer said:
Final Fan, and others.

What does any of this have to do with Bush?? I thought we were talking about the tax code.

and Final Fan,

The 22% isn't a tax that is paid to the government, it is a cost incured by businesses to prepare their tax statements. Think of the army of accountants, and the man hours needed for lets say Best Buy to prepare their taxes, and if they are audited, that expense goes even higher.

The arguement here is that if Corporations don't have to prepare their taxes, then they can cut out those additional costs, which are estimated to be at 22%.

So, with this plan, companies can cut costs by about 22%, and that won't effect the governments tax income. Then, the cost goes up 23% for consumer taxes. Therefore the cost to consumers stays the same, and the government income stays the same. Where the savings comes in is in the form of all the saved man hours needed to prepare overly complicated tax statements.

Don't you see how that is a good thing, it basically would give more money to everyone, because it gets rid of wasted effort in preparing taxes.

Also, Huckabee said he didn't know how old the world is because the days in the Bible during creation could have been of any length of time. It was 7 "God" days, which could be a billion years a piece for all he knows. So, get your facts right before you go blasting someone and their beliefs.

This thread has touched on a couple other subjects but always returned to the issue at hand. I've made small comments on those (which Eomund actually brought up in the first place by the way).

[edit:  posted this before I saw that Greer was leaving the thread.  Please pretend that the following is directed at Eomund.]

Ah, so [edit: are you] saying that people are calling "cost of compliance" a "hidden tax"[?]  First of all, I would have to see the evidence that it actually amounts to 22%, and to know what precisely it is 22% of, and especially see whether the 22% of (whatever) is equal to 23% of (the tax-inclusive price of all new retail sales in the U.S.*) AKA 30% of all new retail sales in the U.S.*

Then I would like to know how much the cost of compliance for the FairTax will be, and if you say "Zero" I will LOL. Don't forget the cost of administering the prebate system as well.

*Including, as I recall, houses; rent; mortgages and other debt/interest payments; medical bills; gas; and all sorts of interesting things.

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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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Greer said:
Final Fan,

On that note, I can respect and agree with you, at least we have some common ground that there is a problem that needs fixing.

The disagreement is over what would work best, I'll respect your opinion and agree to disagree with you on the best solution.

I'm out of this thread, between this and Galaki, I've had enough politics for one day.

Sqrl said:
@Greer,

I'm pretty much with you on that one, I just wanted to point out that we do all have common ground and that a solution should be the goal not just endless debate which is very very easy to get sucked into and I'm sure we are all guilty of.

Hear, hear!


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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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Eomund said:
hibikir said:
Eomund said:
I know that I give 15% of my total income PRETAX (gross income) to a charity. I know there isn't much of a tax incentive for me to give that much. I also know that America is the most generous nation in the world because the people are the most generous. Look at the terrible disasters around the country this past year. People are very generous and are always ready to lend a helping hand. We saw this even during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. (PLEASE DO NOT GO ON A RABBIT TRAIL ABOUT WHOSE FAULT THAT WAS...)

OK, that's all any rational person needed to know about the how honest your proposals are. Here's a wonderful claim based on nothing but your own experience, which probably doesn't involve more than 2 months outside of the US.

The US is nowhere near the top in Organ donation rate. For that, you'll have to look at Spain.

The US's foreign aid per capita, is under 20 cents per capita. Norway gives over a dollar.

Laws agains immigration are very popular. Even when it's legal immigration. Look at the movement to make sure DMVs become immigration offices, and immigrants can't get driver licenses longer than the length of their visa (when over 90% of visas are very short by design, and are lawfully renewed). Many other countries welcome immigrants, not unlike the US not 50 years ago.

So no, you are not right on taxes, and you aren't right on this one. Take off your red, white and blue glasses and go see how good chunks of NO are still a disaster area, while a lot of the money dedicated to relief is just pure profit for Bush's cronies.


 I would suggest that I see in full 8-bit Nintendo glory, not just a red, white, and blue tinted lens. 

If you don't accept that answer then I see the full range of technicolor provided to me by life.

Did I not ask that nobody go down that trail? You are suggesting that the problems of NO are now the fault of the Bush Adminitration.... I suggest you don't bring this up again as it isn't true.

 Now the top bolded part.

Americans give more to charity than any other country. We gave over 295 billion in 2006. (source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-25-charitable_N.htm) 

Americans gave $260 billion away in charity last year -- that's about $900 per person.  (source: http://www.casefoundation.org/spotlight/giveback/usa)

If you look at those tell me that America isn't the most generous country in the world. 

For starters I'd say there is more to charity than simple donating money, such as volunteer work.

But I digress. The big flaw with measuring money donated as the basis for how generous a nation is comes down to how wealthy that particular nation happens to be and how the super wealthy and corporations can skew that number.

For example, people in zimbabwe could donate a larger percentage of their time and money to charity than the majority of american citizens. However, add in people like Bill Gates and corporations donating billions and suddenly that skews the average to be greater than Zimbabwe. Of course this is a hypothetical, but certainly you get the idea.

However, I do have one very serious question; Do you think that Americans are innately predisposed to be more charitable than people in all other nations?



Leo-j said: If a dvd for a pc game holds what? Crysis at 3000p or something, why in the world cant a blu-ray disc do the same?

ssj12 said: Player specific decoders are nothing more than specialized GPUs. Gran Turismo is the trust driving simulator of them all. 

"Why do they call it the xbox 360? Because when you see it, you'll turn 360 degrees and walk away" 

Final-Fan said:
 

This thread has touched on a couple other subjects but always returned to the issue at hand. I've made small comments on those (which Eomund actually brought up in the first place by the way).

[edit:  posted this before I saw that Greer was leaving the thread.  Please pretend that the following is directed at Eomund.]

Ah, so [edit: are you] saying that people are calling "cost of compliance" a "hidden tax"[?]  First of all, I would have to see the evidence that it actually amounts to 22%, and to know what precisely it is 22% of, and especially see whether the 22% of (whatever) is equal to 23% of (the tax-inclusive price of all new retail sales in the U.S.*) AKA 30% of all new retail sales in the U.S.*

Then I would like to know how much the cost of compliance for the FairTax will be, and if you say "Zero" I will LOL. Don't forget the cost of administering the prebate system as well.

*Including, as I recall, houses; rent; mortgages and other debt/interest payments; medical bills; gas; and all sorts of interesting things.

I already posted one source for this 22% number:

"In 2005 individuals, businesses and non-profits will spend an estimated 6 billion hours complying with the federal income tax code, with an estimated compliance cost of over $265.1 billion. This amounts to imposing a 22-cent tax compliance surcharge for every dollar the income tax system collects. Projections show that by 2015 the compliance cost will grow to $482.7 billion." - www.taxfoundation.org/files/sr138.pdf

 

That $482.7 billion split between the 300,000,000 people in the US would amount to $1625 per person.  Of course, businesses, accountants and taxlawyers make up a huge chunk of this.

 

I have a feeling that with everyone one of your posts you will never be happy until someone creates a 300,000,000 page document detailing how much every person in America will be saving and or spending with the new tax vs the old.  Even then, you will still be unhappy as it will probably come from someone who is pro "Fair Tax".  I've obtained one piece of information from this thread.  You will never be happy with any explaination, and will do no leg work on your own to find answers to the questions you have.  You want to be spoon fed a number that you think is good and only then you will be happy.

 



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