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Ok I found another economists view on this. I will post the link (as I cannot edit the PDF to grab the graph), and yes it is from FairTax.org but they are referencing independent data.

http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/FairTax-Fundamentals_and_facts-070122.pdf

 



I want my WHOLE paycheck! I support the Fair Tax!

http://www.fairtax.org/

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Even if I were to grant that the graph that FactCheck.org uses wasn't properly fact-checked (which I emphatically do not), the trends still hold true.  The extremely poor and very rich benefit at the cost of the middle class. 

And, hey, you trust your precious Americans for Fair Taxation, right? 



Notice the similarity in relative numbers, with [edit: two] exception[s]:  [the AFT graph shows less benefit to the poor in both "before" and "after", and] THE EFFECT THE FAIR TAX WILL HAVE ON VERY HIGH INCOME LEVELS IS HIDDEN.  They don't want you to see that the major benefits of the "FairTax" are to the very top earners. 

You can argue about how much more efficient the FairTax will supposedly be, but trying to deny that the rich are the primary beneficiaries is just pathetic. 

Also, I want sources on your allegations about the graph, and don't forget that the source has to specify that it is the data that [edit: that] graph draws on that is incorrect. 



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Eomund said:
I know that I give 15% of my total income PRETAX (gross income) to a charity. I know there isn't much of a tax incentive for me to give that much. I also know that America is the most generous nation in the world because the people are the most generous. Look at the terrible disasters around the country this past year. People are very generous and are always ready to lend a helping hand. We saw this even during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. (PLEASE DO NOT GO ON A RABBIT TRAIL ABOUT WHOSE FAULT THAT WAS...)

 OK, that's all any rational person needed to know about the how honest your proposals are. Here's a wonderful claim based on nothing but your own experience, which probably doesn't involve more than 2 months outside of the US.

The US is nowhere near the top in Organ donation rate. For that, you'll have to look at Spain.

The US's foreign aid per capita, is under 20 cents per capita. Norway gives over a dollar.

Laws agains immigration are very popular. Even when it's legal immigration. Look at the movement to make sure DMVs become immigration offices, and immigrants can't get driver licenses longer than the length of their visa (when over 90% of visas are very short by design, and are lawfully renewed). Many other countries welcome immigrants, not unlike the US not 50 years ago.

So no, you are not right on taxes, and you aren't right on this one. Take off your red, white and blue glasses and go see how good chunks of NO are still a disaster area, while a lot of the money dedicated to relief is just pure profit for Bush's cronies.



Eomund said:

Ok I found another economists view on this. I will post the link (as I cannot edit the PDF to grab the graph), and yes it is from FairTax.org but they are referencing independent data.

http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/FairTax-Fundamentals_and_facts-070122.pdf


Let's just say that when I tell you I "question" the impartiality of this expert I am going for understatement.

In that graph, EVERYONE pays way, way less in taxes than before. Do you even comprehend how this cannot possibly be revenue-neutral?

It's obvious at this point that you have not even attempted to read the FactCheck article. Please do so. Please attempt to refute their criticisms.

[edit:  for your convenience:  http://www.factcheck.org/taxes/unspinning_the_fairtax.html]

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Final-Fan said:
Eomund said:
The idea that the company will not reduce the prices once the FairTax is implemented is a myth. The capitalistic marketplace would ensure that the companies would keep prices as low as possible while still turning a profit.

Currently there is an embedded tax of about 22% in every thing we buy. This embedded tax is the Corporate Taxes, Payroll Taxes, etc. that the government collects from companies already. They want to make a profit so they pass the costs of the taxes and the cost of tax compliance on to the customers in the form of higher prices. This 22% is already an INCLUSIVE tax and would simply be replaced by the FairTax rate of 23% INCLUSIVE. Therefore the prices will stay about the same as they currently are. The cost of Tax Compliance is a fairly large portion is relation to how much income it provides to a company (hint: it helps bring in less than $1).

The cost of Tax Compliance for our entire country in the year 2005, 6 billion hours of individuals, businesses, and nonprofits. This effort added up to about $265 billion spent in COMPLIANCE ALONE! With this information we could assume that prices would go down since Compliance costs of the FairTax is a tiny fraction of what it currently costs. These costs would set off other price decreases for the consumer.


FactCheck.org says:
"But the FairTax Will Lower Prices"


Proponents of the FairTax point out that prices on consumer goods contain what are called “hidden taxes.” Under current law, corporations have to pay taxes on their earnings. Moreover, businesses have to pay social security taxes for each employee. The money to pay these taxes has to come from somewhere, and FairTax supporters argue that the cost is passed on to the consumer. In fact, the best-known proponent of the FairTax, talk-show host Neal Boortz, argues that 22 percent of the price of a consumer good is really a “hidden tax.” Get rid of corporate and social security taxes, Boortz argues, and consumer good prices would drop by 22 percent. Even with the 23 percent FairTax, prices stay the same, and with the elimination of income taxes, paychecks will get bigger. Everyone gets a raise and the federal government still gets its revenue. About 10 percent of the e-mail messages we received from FairTax proponents trumpeted this kind of magic act. It is easy to understand the confusion on the issue, as Boortz himself made similar assertions in the hardcover edition of his book. (He later issued a corrected version in paperback.)

A bit of critical analysis shows that this cannot be right. The FairTax is revenue-neutral. That means that for every tax dollar collected under the current system, the FairTax has to collect a dollar. If the FairTax exactly equaled embedded taxes, then it could not possibly be revenue-neutral, since embedded taxes do not take into account personal income or estate taxes. The FairTax rate would have to be high enough to replace embedded taxes plus income and estate taxes.

Chris Edwards, the Cato Institute's director of tax policy studies, points out that prices do not really matter; corporate, payroll, income and estate taxes currently generate approximately $2.4 trillion, and a revenue-neutral FairTax would still require that taxpayers pony up $2.4 trillion. Nor is it clear that the 22 percent embedded tax figure is particularly meaningful. David Burton, chief economist of the Americans for Fair Taxation, calls it "simplistic" to think that the entire cost of corporate taxes is borne by consumers. Cato's Edwards suggests that while consumers do pay at least part of the costs, producers also bear some of the burden. That is, employees pay part of the costs of hidden taxes (in the form of lower wages), and corporate shareholders pay another portion (in the form of lower returns on their investments).

 http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2007/01/data/weorept.aspx?sy=2006&ey=2008&scsm=1&ssd=1&sort=country&ds=.&br=1&c=512%2C941%2C914%2C446%2C612%2C666%2C614%2C668%2C311%2C672%2C213%2C946%2C911%2C137%2C193%2C962%2C122%2C674%2C912%2C676%2C313%2C548%2C419%2C556%2C513%2C678%2C316%2C181%2C913%2C682%2C124%2C684%2C339%2C273%2C638%2C921%2C514%2C948%2C218%2C686%2C963%2C688%2C616%2C518%2C223%2C728%2C516%2C558%2C918%2C138%2C748%2C196%2C618%2C278%2C522%2C692%2C622%2C694%2C156%2C142%2C624%2C449%2C626%2C564%2C628%2C283%2C228%2C853%2C924%2C288%2C233%2C293%2C632%2C566%2C636%2C964%2C634%2C182%2C238%2C453%2C662%2C968%2C960%2C922%2C423%2C714%2C935%2C862%2C128%2C716%2C611%2C456%2C321%2C722%2C243%2C965%2C248%2C718%2C469%2C724%2C253%2C576%2C642%2C936%2C643%2C961%2C939%2C813%2C644%2C199%2C819%2C184%2C172%2C524%2C132%2C361%2C646%2C362%2C648%2C364%2C915%2C732%2C134%2C366%2C652%2C734%2C174%2C144%2C328%2C146%2C258%2C463%2C656%2C528%2C654%2C923%2C336%2C738%2C263%2C578%2C268%2C537%2C532%2C742%2C944%2C866%2C176%2C369%2C534%2C744%2C536%2C186%2C429%2C925%2C178%2C746%2C436%2C926%2C136%2C466%2C343%2C112%2C158%2C111%2C439%2C298%2C916%2C927%2C664%2C846%2C826%2C299%2C542%2C582%2C443%2C474%2C917%2C754%2C544%2C698&s=NGDPD&grp=0&a=&pr.x=32&pr.y=4

CountrySubject DescriptorUnitsScale
200620072008
United StatesGross domestic product, current pricesU.S. dollarsBillions
13,244.55013,770.30914,418.482


So the 2007 GDP of the US is $13.77 Trillion and 22% of the embedded taxes alone = over $3 trillion in current taxes.

The FairTax : $13.77 trillion @ 23% = over $3 trillion in taxes raised.

Hrmm... Taxes will still be the same amount raised. There is no magic to it, just simple math.



I want my WHOLE paycheck! I support the Fair Tax!

http://www.fairtax.org/

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Look, even SUPPOSING that there is a 22% "hidden tax" ON TOP OF the income tax etc., in that case how can you expect to replace it all with a 23% flat sales tax and come out with the government making the same amount of money?

22% tax + big income tax =/= 23% tax

Except if by magic.



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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hibikir said:
Eomund said:
I know that I give 15% of my total income PRETAX (gross income) to a charity. I know there isn't much of a tax incentive for me to give that much. I also know that America is the most generous nation in the world because the people are the most generous. Look at the terrible disasters around the country this past year. People are very generous and are always ready to lend a helping hand. We saw this even during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. (PLEASE DO NOT GO ON A RABBIT TRAIL ABOUT WHOSE FAULT THAT WAS...)

OK, that's all any rational person needed to know about the how honest your proposals are. Here's a wonderful claim based on nothing but your own experience, which probably doesn't involve more than 2 months outside of the US.

The US is nowhere near the top in Organ donation rate. For that, you'll have to look at Spain.

The US's foreign aid per capita, is under 20 cents per capita. Norway gives over a dollar.

Laws agains immigration are very popular. Even when it's legal immigration. Look at the movement to make sure DMVs become immigration offices, and immigrants can't get driver licenses longer than the length of their visa (when over 90% of visas are very short by design, and are lawfully renewed). Many other countries welcome immigrants, not unlike the US not 50 years ago.

So no, you are not right on taxes, and you aren't right on this one. Take off your red, white and blue glasses and go see how good chunks of NO are still a disaster area, while a lot of the money dedicated to relief is just pure profit for Bush's cronies.


 I would suggest that I see in full 8-bit Nintendo glory, not just a red, white, and blue tinted lens. 

If you don't accept that answer then I see the full range of technicolor provided to me by life.

Did I not ask that nobody go down that trail? You are suggesting that the problems of NO are now the fault of the Bush Adminitration.... I suggest you don't bring this up again as it isn't true.

 Now the top bolded part.

Americans give more to charity than any other country. We gave over 295 billion in 2006. (source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-06-25-charitable_N.htm) 

Americans gave $260 billion away in charity last year -- that's about $900 per person.  (source: http://www.casefoundation.org/spotlight/giveback/usa)

If you look at those tell me that America isn't the most generous country in the world. 



I want my WHOLE paycheck! I support the Fair Tax!

http://www.fairtax.org/

Yeah, and Brownie was doin' a heckuva job.



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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phil said:
Sqrl said:
Just for the record, a lot of very wealthy Americans are already moving out of the country to various non-extradition South American countries. The rich have the means to pick up and leave, all you have to do is give them a motive.

This whole idea that 10% of people should pay for 90% of the taxes or whatever the percentages are is going to fail once that 10% says "F this!". I actually know people who plan on moving to Ecuador, they invited me to come down and help pick a house with them. These people aren't filthy rich either, together they make about 240k a year. Where did they get the idea? Other wealthy people they are friends with.

The idea that the minority pay for the majority is great so long as you're majority. Just keep on pushing these people away, lets see what that does to the economy.

Seeing as to how the top 20% of America controls over 90% of the country's wealth, it's only fair that they pay over 90% of the taxes. If they wanna move offshore and say "F This," then the state can go ahead and say "F you back." I'm sure there's someone who wouldn't mind doing their job for half their pay.

Uhm you do realise that a lot of the people we are talking about have job titles of "investor" right? I don't know many people who are willing to take over another investors stake at half the profits considering they would still be responisble for the same amount of risk. Which really this is what this boils down to. Investors are what keep economies from stagnating, put up money for new business, and new products, or ideas.

I don't think you really understand what the 20% of Americans do with their wealth that makes them so wealthy or you would have gotten this point to start with. If a meaningful percentage of that 20% decides to head for greener pastures then this country is in serious trouble. The simple fact is that if 90% of this countries wealth picks up and leaves there aren't going to be jobs for many of us. But to be clear I don't think all of them are actually going to leave.

I'm simply making the point that we need them a lot more than they need us and they are actually willing to pay more than the average person. Thats part of the disconnect here. Anyone who doesn't recognize that the rich need to pay more for the system to work is deluding themselves, so lets be clear on that. I disagree that they should have to pay more but basic economics dictates that they have to..they absolutely must. What isn't so clear cut however is the amount they should be paying.


@topic at large:

Here is my problem with the anti-FairTax position:

It seems the major idea behind the opposition is picking at the details, and I actually think this is a good thing if the intentions are fair-minded. A tax system needs to be picked apart and rebuilt time and again before it is ready to be instated. But what I don't get is that just about everyone (let me know if you don't) thinks that the current system is awful.

So, to me it seems that we should be looking for a new system, we should be tearing apart the FairTax and pointing out its problems, and we should then fix those problems and put it back together in a way that will work.

The key a lot of people are missing(imo) is to realise that not every market sector is going to benefit from a new system. A tax system is going to favor some market sectors over others and there is no way around that. A change in tax systems is going to require some people to find new jobs..again, no way around it. But neither of those things by themselves should be a detterant to not implementing a better system. Both of those things are going to cause short-term issues as the market rebalances itself in its new environment...but after that its life as usual.

Really I don't want to argue about the nitty gritty details, its enough for me to leave it up to the experts so long as everyone can agree that what we have now is simply atrocious. Hopefully they can come up with something a lot simpler than what we have now.

To everyone in the thread: Are you happy with the current system or do you think we need a new system (even if that new system isn't the fair tax)?



To Each Man, Responsibility

Final Fan, and others.

What does any of this have to do with Bush?? I thought we were talking about the tax code.

and Final Fan,

The 22% isn't a tax that is paid to the government, it is a cost incured by businesses to prepare their tax statements. Think of the army of accountants, and the man hours needed for lets say Best Buy to prepare their taxes, and if they are audited, that expense goes even higher.

The arguement here is that if Corporations don't have to prepare their taxes, then they can cut out those additional costs, which are estimated to be at 22%.

So, with this plan, companies can cut costs by about 22%, and that won't effect the governments tax income. Then, the cost goes up 23% for consumer taxes. Therefore the cost to consumers stays the same, and the government income stays the same. Where the savings comes in is in the form of all the saved man hours needed to prepare overly complicated tax statements.

Don't you see how that is a good thing, it basically would give more money to everyone, because it gets rid of wasted effort in preparing taxes.

Also, Huckabee said he didn't know how old the world is because the days in the Bible during creation could have been of any length of time. It was 7 "God" days, which could be a billion years a piece for all he knows. So, get your facts right before you go blasting someone and their beliefs.