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Runa216 on 31 August 2011
Sevengen said:
it's relevant Runa because you're asking people to prove an abstract thought, which simply isn't possible. Knowing that going in, proof of God becomes nothing more than a fools game. I am not a spiritual person myself, I don't necessarily believe in any God... but I cannot ask someone else, who does believe, to provide me proof of their Gods existence.
Those that wrote the bible or the Koran were smart enough to understand the fundamental problem with spirituality, it cannot be stretched across a counter to be examined, or held up to the sunlight. It's a belief and there will be those of us that doubt it. Maybe, like me, you have a scientific mind that asks for more, substance is a very reassuring and necessary componant for belief, but, you won't find that in religion. Religion demands you suspend those questions of it, those proofs... and as it does so, it leaves it proponents with nothing to show the skeptics but faith. Again, that's why my first post is relevant, you cannot prove faith, only accept it for what it is and asking others to prove that God is real is no different than me asking you to prove that you'll wake up tomorrow. You can't do it, so it's better left alone.

While I agree you can't substantiate an abstract thought, I'm calling out those who claim that God(or zeus or whatever) is a real thing and should be treated as such. If you believe in God, or Mohammed or whatever religion you follow, I fully endorse that and I'm certainly not aiming to belittle that.  I AM, however, getting sick of those who believe shoving it in everybody else's face, pushing it as absolute, undeniable truth while failing to back it up.  

God is a concept, a human creation...but there are many who insist there really IS a higher power controlling us, a sentient, divine being that is omniscient, onminpresent, and omnipotent.  

That's the difference. 



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Troll_Whisperer on 31 August 2011
Umos-Cmos said:

It is not my words that will convert you.  You are correct that Man CANNOT convert someone to God.  It is a personal relationship that you develop with God himself.  People serve as witnesses of him, but ultimately you can choose to believe what you will.  One of God's greatest gifts to us is our agency.  He will not force someone to do that which he does not want to.  I'm gathering from your responses that you have no desire to truly know if there be a God.  I hope I'm not coming off as trying to convert you with my words.  I am simply offering a few simple steps you can take if you really have the desire to know.  If you don't have that sincere desire, then our conversation must end and we will agree to just be friends with good gaming in common. (-:

Well, of course I can't be converted, same as you're not gonna stop believing whatever my experience is. That's simply our upbringing.

I wasn't even arguing against God's existance, rather that you can't prove it through your personal experience and that some people can't believe in God no matter what.

So I'll accept you're proposal. ;)



No troll is too much for me to handle. I rehabilitate trolls, I train people. I am the Troll Whisperer.

Sevengen on 31 August 2011

might as well have some fun...

@umos Cmos...... if God's DNA is in us, would it not also be in the Angels, and Satan.... who was originally an Angel. Logically, that makes sense. So, answer me this, if God's DNA is in Satan also, wouldn't that mean that God is capable of evil?
I mean think about it. If God made the Devil and the Devil is bad, he would have had to of received that from God, especially considering the assumption that God made the Devil intentionally, thereby giving Humans a choice. So, working backwards, doesn't that mean that God himself is capable of evil...and you worship that?
or...
God made a mistake when he created the Devil, which would mean God is no more perfect than you or I... and you worship that?
either way you wanna look at, intentional or mistake on God's handiwork when he created the Devil, why would you worship a being capable of such evil or imperfection?



Umos-Cmos on 31 August 2011
Jay520 said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Jay520 said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:

To the OP I would simply ask you to explain to me what salt tastes like.  Assuming I've never tasted something so common as salt, how would you explain to me how it tastes?

It doesn't work like that... salt is something tangible, if never tasted it, you taste it. If it exists you try it. If God exists...

 

If you had never tasted or seen salt or met anyone who had tasted or seen salt or had no salt at all anywhere on Earth to prove it's existence would you believe in this so called 'salt'?

God does exist, prove him.  Just like you would prove what salt tastes like or if you wanted to see if a seed truly sprouts into a plant.  It's not that complicated.  I've experienced the power of God in my life.  I have a lifes worth of experience that you cannot disprove.  I know he exists.  How is this different from the parameters I set for salt?  Surely you could describe something so common as salt.

Because everyone can experience salt but not everyone can experience God...

You're feeling is not backed up by anything and millions of people don't feel the same way. I could describe salt with a lot of proof, I could actually bring it. You're not proving anything.

I never felt anything like God in my life, no one in my family is religious. If you had never been taught about it would you have felt it?

Not that many people are religious in Europe. So it's not just a matter of describing, you need more. I could make up and describe anything I please.

False.  Everyone CAN experience God.  Do you really want to know how or are you just trolling me?  I'd be glad to tell you how if you'd like.  The fact that it is impossible to describe what salt tastes like to someone that has never tried it illustrates my point.  Unless you try it yourself, you cannont really know.  In this same way, I have put God to the test and proved him.  He has made himself evident to me.  It's all the evidence I need.  If you have a true desire to know God he has provided a way for you to get to know him.


I'm curious. How has God proved his existence in your life?

This simple answer is that I have proved him.  I started with a sincere desire to know God.  From there I read from his holy scriptures and studied to learn more of him.  The scriptures tell us that if we lack wisdom to ask of God.  I did just that, through prayer.  I asked to know if what I was reading and learning was true.  The scriptures tell us how we can know the truth of all things.  Through the power of the Holy Ghost.  The Holy Ghost speaks to our minds and hearts in a still, small voice and causes our hearts to burn within us.  When our hearts and minds agree with the question we ask of God, it is a confirmation of that truth.  The key ingredient to all of this however, is sincerity.  If you aren't sincere in your quest to know God you will not find the answers to the questions you seek.

I have done these things and through spiritual experiences that I will not share on a public forum, I know that God is real and that he loves me and wants what is best for me.  No doubt whatsoever.  The Holy Ghost can leave an indelible mark on your heart that you will not be able to deny.  I have witnessed miracles around me and also had miracles happen to me personally.  All things in my mind denote that there is a God.  The stars and planets in their orbit, the nature of life itself and the vastness of the universe.

If you sincerely want to know these things that I've spoken of you merely need to plant that desire in your heart, nourish it with the word of God and see if it grows within you.  Mans words alone will never convince you.  The feelings of the Holy Ghost will.


Wouldn't be impossible for one to have a desire for something they don't believe in. Does that mean Athiest are damned even if they try their hardest to find him.?

I absolutely agree with you on that.  One cannot truly believe unless he has had the answer I spoke of in my post above.  Therefore an Atheist does not believe initially.  If he is humble and sincere, through the power of the Holy Ghost the answer to his question will be revealed.  An Atheist would simply kneel down and pray to God with sincerity of heart to know if he truly exists.  One must ask with a broken heart and a contrite spirit in order to receive their answer.  Some do not want to know if there is a God.  That is their choice and I respect that.  God knows the true desires of our heart.  God does not toy with us.  He has given us commandments and through obedience to those commandments there are promised blessings.  I receive those blessings in my own life.

You see, if you wanted to conduct a scientific experiment to see if a seed can grow into a plant, you would need to plant the seed in good soil first.  Then you would have to nourish it with water and sunlight.  Learning the Gospel of Jesus Christ is no different.  You must test this experiment in your heart to see if it yields good fruit.  Hopefully that makes sense.



"Some of you are thinking that you won't fight. Others, that you can't fight. They all say that, until they're out there."
--
PIKMIN FAN CLUB MEMBER

Umos-Cmos on 31 August 2011
Troll_Whisperer said:
Umos-Cmos said:

It is not my words that will convert you.  You are correct that Man CANNOT convert someone to God.  It is a personal relationship that you develop with God himself.  People serve as witnesses of him, but ultimately you can choose to believe what you will.  One of God's greatest gifts to us is our agency.  He will not force someone to do that which he does not want to.  I'm gathering from your responses that you have no desire to truly know if there be a God.  I hope I'm not coming off as trying to convert you with my words.  I am simply offering a few simple steps you can take if you really have the desire to know.  If you don't have that sincere desire, then our conversation must end and we will agree to just be friends with good gaming in common. (-:

Well, of course I can't be converted, same as you're not gonna stop believing whatever my experience is. That's simply our upbringing.

I wasn't even arguing against God's existance, rather that you can't prove it through your personal experience and that some people can't believe in God no matter what.

So I'll accept you're proposal. ;)

Sweet!  We actually agree on one point then.  The point that Man cannot "prove" God, but rather you must experience conversion on a personal level.  Honestly, there are lots of people from various upbringings and cultures that gain a testimony of God.  It happens everyday.  You could, everyone could.  Put God's promise to the test to see for yourself.  That's all people have to do to know.  Everyone can do that.  Everyone "WON'T do that, if that is what you are meaning.  Sorry if we had a miscommunication.



"Some of you are thinking that you won't fight. Others, that you can't fight. They all say that, until they're out there."
--
PIKMIN FAN CLUB MEMBER

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Jay520 on 31 August 2011

@Cmos_Umos

I see. I doubt I'll find anything if I were to genuinly search for him, but I respect your words. I may try one day though.



Umos-Cmos on 31 August 2011

I gotta go.  Good chat guys (and gals?).  You can message me if I didn't satisfactorily answer your questions directed towards me.  Civil discussion is fun.  It's part of what makes us Human IMO.  Bye.



"Some of you are thinking that you won't fight. Others, that you can't fight. They all say that, until they're out there."
--
PIKMIN FAN CLUB MEMBER

PhalanxCO on 31 August 2011
gamelover2000 said:
PhalanxCO said:
gamelover2000 said:
The very fact that you can't prove or disprove god's existence proves he is not real. Religion has never predicted anything or has it said things wich were later found to be true but it has said multiple things wich later were proven untrue.

Say what?

200 years ago we couldn't prove/disprove that black holes existed, but that doesn't mean they didn't. There are lots of things in the universe that we cannot prove or disprove, that doesn't mean they don't exist. It only means we aren't advanced enough.

I believe in God. I also believe that the Big Bang is a perfectly plausible theory on the origin of the universe. God and Science are not mutually exclusive. Faith by its very definition cannot be proved, otherwise it would not be faith. The Bible actually confirms science on many occasions. It stated that the Earth was a sphere when everyone else thought it was flat. It said that it hangs in space revolving around the sun, when everyone else thought it was supported by 4 elephants on the back of a giant sea turtle. There are myriads of examples of the Bible corroborating science.

The reason why it's obvious religion is not real due to god being impossible to prove untrue is that that is how religion works.

 

Religion was made up by someone, it wasn't implemented onto the world out of nowhere, if it was the oldest religion is the correct one obviously.

 

They basically say that god is a mighty being that is impotent and loves you but there is no way his existance can be proven, bad things still happen to religious people ATLEAST as much so why is this 'love' not showing?

 

Not only can he not be proven true, bad things and good things happen equally to religious and non religious people... that makes no sense whatsoever if you even read the bible. it states that trusting in god will fill your life with peace and joy..

 

I'm apparently completely missing something in your argument because I fail to see how the inability to prove the existence of God in fact disproves his existence. If that is what you are truly trying to say, then there is nothing I can do to refute that "logic". Nor would I want to try.



Sevengen on 31 August 2011

@runa

O.K., you just said that God is a concept, a creation of Mankind. That's what you believe and similarly shoved in my face by creating this post. Just like you're asking those that believe in him to prove it, I am asking you to prove you don't believe. Fair is fair right?... and if you can't show me a shred of evidence for your disbelief, why should they be expected to prove anything to you. It's pointless Runa, and you're inquisition of them, of their beliefs, their God can be considered unwarranted if you yourself cannot stand up to comparable questions.

Saying that you're tired of having religion force-fed to you by pious individuals is a simple excuse for starting this thread. You know why you started it; an attempt to make them look foolish, to argue. But, as you can see by my questioning of you, it's unfair. You can no more answer my questions than they can answer yours.
Lesson for the future I hope.



crissindahouse on 31 August 2011
Umos-Cmos said:
crissindahouse said:
Umos-Cmos said:
crissindahouse said:
Umos-Cmos said:
 

God's DNA is a part of us.  We were created in his image, therefore we have passions and desires.  We are here to learn to master those passions and desires.  Satan is the one putting the dirty thoughts into your mind of all the bad things you want to do with said hot lady.

that sounds not nice. sounds like we are animals in a experimental station, i think i would have to go to jail if i would do that to someone...

I'm confused as to which part sounds "not nice".  We are quite the opposite of some experimental animals.  We each have the seeds of godliness within us.  He desires us to become just like him.  Not sure if you are christian or not, but this truth is stated many times in holy scripture.

not sure what would happen to me if i would breed some creature out of my dna haha or if i just would put my dna in some other creature to make my dna a part of this creature. i bet some christians would condemn me as freaking scientist wouldn't they? but it's cool that it happened to us?

Why are you referring to humans as "some creatures"?  I already explained to you that we are literally the children of heavenly parents.  A spirit and a body united form a soul.  We are the literal spiritual children of our heavenly parents just like we are physical children of our earthly parents.  It's not weird or complicated at all.

what? why the hell (haha hell) do you think i just talk about humans? i talk about all kinds of creatures on this planet putting my dna in or breeding one out of my dna. you just shouldn't talk about dna if you mean "spirit and body forming a soul"

btw if i could form something like you explain about what we are, christians would condemn me right? sure it's not possible (or maybe it is with this logic) but if i could, would i be a god as well or just a scientific freak and someone would have burned me not so long ago for that?

no joke i believe for myself that there is something like a "god" but i don't know what this is and i don't really believe what i can read in the bible just because people long time ago from a time the mankind wasn't very intelligent believed in and conveyed it over thousands of years. noone from europe/america would believe what wild tribes in africa believe in whether different gods, mystical beings or whatever they believe in. everyone says they are just not so smart but people like christians think that their logic has to be 100% right? yeah makes sense...

but that's not the topic so back to it and sry for my nightly freaking story haha