jman8 said: There's been talk from the developer community stating that the PS3 is difficult to develop for, but only in reference to taking full advantage of the hardware. I'm betting that producing a faithful port from the 360 to the PS3 isn't all that difficult and doesn't require a huge investment. Also, at least one developer has said porting a game from the PS3 to 360 is even simpler than the other way around. Check out this Factor 5 interview: http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2007/04/qa_with_factor_5_chief_julian_eggebrecht.html

 I actually think that is pretty obvious. Porting TO the hardest platform would be a lot harder than porting FROM it (depending how crazy your code was). But is this a smart thing to do?

Game A: developed on the PS3, then ported to the 360
    - released on the PS3 after 3 years of dev
    - ported to the 360 in 6-12 months (so released after 3.5-4 years)

Game B: developed on the 360, then ported to the PS3
    - released on the 360 after 2 years of dev
    - ported to the PS3 after 1-1.5 year of dev (released after 3-3.5 years)

Your PS3 version ends up being released around the same time - just that, in the 2nd case - its a better game, as it can already incorporate feedback from the 360 release.

The difference is in case 'A' you get no revenue until 3 years - in case 'B' you have revenue (and from a larger install base) after just 2 years.

If I was running a development company, I would always push for the 360 version to come first - and concurrently develop the PS3 version while the 360 one was in development (as it takes longer to make). 

 

jman8 said: In regards to Killzone 2 being a system seller, I have a little faith that it can be. Killzone 1 was downright terrible. But Killzone: Liberation on the PSP was actually a very well executed game. The media didn't find it remarkable, but it's a PSP fan favorite regardless (I know you Wii owners know what it feels like when the media doesn't appreciate your games). Based off that title and the huge budget for the new one, I think there's some chance that Killzone can be a system seller.

I just don't think you can have a system seller for an expensive system ... consider Gears of War for the XBox 360; without a doubt GoW is the best game for the XBox 360 (and was possibly the best game released in 2006), is the best selling game for the XBox 360, and the game has an amazing ammount of hype surrounding it yet the XBox 360 has not recieved much of a long term sales increase since its release. At $400 there are few people who are willing to buy a system for 1 game, at $600 even the best game ever created will have difficutly moving any units ...

jman8 said: In regards to Killzone 2 being a system seller, I have a little faith that it can be. Killzone 1 was downright terrible. But Killzone: Liberation on the PSP was actually a very well executed game. The media didn't find it remarkable, but it's a PSP fan favorite regardless (I know you Wii owners know what it feels like when the media doesn't appreciate your games). Based off that title and the huge budget for the new one, I think there's some chance that Killzone can be a system seller.

I think Killzone is a tricky one. Halo did really well because MS did a GREAT job marketing the HALO brand name. It also has a sci-fi / fantasy feel to the name.

KILLZONE is the opposite. Sony sort of stuffed up brand name by over-hyping the first game (and leaving a lot of people disapointed). And the name itself is no where as strong as HALO - conjours images of war, death, gore to me - not images I find mentally attractive.

Im sure it will be a good game (has to be), and Im sure it will sell systems. But in the end its all about numbers, and I don't think it can get close to something like Halo in terms of being a system seller. (In my opinion the entire shooter market is completely flooded anyway - its going to have to do something DIFFERENT to really sell hardware - not just sell software).

 

shams said: jman8 said: There's been talk from the developer community stating that the PS3 is difficult to develop for, but only in reference to taking full advantage of the hardware. I'm betting that producing a faithful port from the 360 to the PS3 isn't all that difficult and doesn't require a huge investment. Also, at least one developer has said porting a game from the PS3 to 360 is even simpler than the other way around. Check out this Factor 5 interview: http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2007/04/qa_with_factor_5_chief_julian_eggebrecht.html I actually think that is pretty obvious. Porting TO the hardest platform would be a lot harder than porting FROM it (depending how crazy your code was). But is this a smart thing to do? Game A: developed on the PS3, then ported to the 360 - released on the PS3 after 3 years of dev - ported to the 360 in 6-12 months (so released after 3.5-4 years) Game B: developed on the 360, then ported to the PS3 - released on the 360 after 2 years of dev - ported to the PS3 after 1-1.5 year of dev (released after 3-3.5 years) Your PS3 version ends up being released around the same time - just that, in the 2nd case - its a better game, as it can already incorporate feedback from the 360 release. The difference is in case 'A' you get no revenue until 3 years - in case 'B' you have revenue (and from a larger install base) after just 2 years. If I was running a development company, I would always push for the 360 version to come first - and concurrently develop the PS3 version while the 360 one was in development (as it takes longer to make).

Yeah, I could make up numbers too but that's all you are doing.  It doesn't take that long to port every time.  GTA IV was a PS3 game but then changed to multi-platform.  Now they will be released the same day.  It's not not they didn't have any PS3 code before they decided to port it to the 360.  Same thing with DMC4.  Moving code to the 360 being easier can be shown by the fact that other capcom games are not being ported over to the PS3.  Oblivion didn't take long to port to the PS3 either.

Anyway, the guys from Factor 5 (creating Lair) said they've already done things on the PS3 that couldn't be done on the 360 so that's promising for sony.  

I think that the 360 and PS3 will keep up with the Wii especially since this fall Halo 3, GTA IV, MGS4, etc will come (I really don't want to list the others but there are a lot between the 2 consoles).  As for PS3 surpassing the 360, I don't think it's that hard considering the 360 doesn't sell in Japan and only sells half as well as the PS2 and PS1 sold in Europe compared to US numbers.  We'll see, though.

Factor 5 also said that they were doing things in the first generation that couldn't be done on any of the GameCube's competitors consoles yet GameCube wasn't perceived to have the 'best' graphics of last generation.

Of course the PS3 can do things that the 360 can't do, but the things it CAN do that the 360 CAN'T are not massive and with the level of almost graphics perfection available on 360 and PS3 (yay for HDR being the new lens flair) the differences between the two within actual game play is not significant in my opinion.

All comparing multi-platform games between PS3 and 360 doesn't mean SHIT when comparing graphical quality because they are the same game, they will have minor differences but one way or the other it doesn't show which platform has the most graphic horsepower at all.

"Anyway, the guys from Factor 5 (creating Lair) said they've already done things on the PS3 that couldn't be done on the 360 so that's promising for sony."

What has Factor 5 done with Xbox360 hardware to claim categorically that the things they are doing for the PS3 cannot be done on the Xbox360?

It doesn't seem that they've ever developed a game for the Xbox360, so on what facts are they basing this claim on?

Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, they haven't touched the Xbox360 hardware, let alone know what it is capable of.

your mother said: "Anyway, the guys from Factor 5 (creating Lair) said they've already done things on the PS3 that couldn't be done on the 360 so that's promising for sony." What has Factor 5 done with Xbox360 hardware to claim categorically that the things they are doing for the PS3 cannot be done on the Xbox360? It doesn't seem that they've ever developed a game for the Xbox360, so on what facts are they basing this claim on? Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, they haven't touched the Xbox360 hardware, let alone know what it is capable of.

That's based on their comments.  Have you read the interview or seen the videos with their commentary?  They explain why they say that.  Using all the SPEs is something the 360 can't do.

windbane said: Yeah, I could make up numbers too but that's all you are doing. It doesn't take that long to port every time. GTA IV was a PS3 game but then changed to multi-platform. Now they will be released the same day. It's not not they didn't have any PS3 code before they decided to port it to the 360. Same thing with DMC4. Moving code to the 360 being easier can be shown by the fact that other capcom games are not being ported over to the PS3. Oblivion didn't take long to port to the PS3 either. Anyway, the guys from Factor 5 (creating Lair) said they've already done things on the PS3 that couldn't be done on the 360 so that's promising for sony. I think that the 360 and PS3 will keep up with the Wii especially since this fall Halo 3, GTA IV, MGS4, etc will come (I really don't want to list the others but there are a lot between the 2 consoles). As for PS3 surpassing the 360, I don't think it's that hard considering the 360 doesn't sell in Japan and only sells half as well as the PS2 and PS1 sold in Europe compared to US numbers. We'll see, though.

Hang on, I smell a huge amount of FUD here. Lets address the issues one at a time..

1/ Do you have any evidence that GTA4 was going to be a PS3 "exclusive", then was switched? No? That's because it wasn't - it would have started either for the 360, or for both systems. And Rockstar have enough people to have three teams on it - one for each platform tech, and one for the game in general. As for Oblivion - do you know WHEN they started porting? It would have been long before the 360 version was released. PS3 engines DON'T appear from thin air you know.

I have a friend working on PS3 engine tech (TeamBondi, working on L.A Noire). He was not only saying that it is an immense amount of work to write a *proper* engine for the PS3, he was also saying how disapointed he was in the overall architecture. Coding for the SPU's is much harder than for the 360's multiple cores (lots of reasons).

2/ As already addressed, Factor 5 haven't touched the 360. And considering they are being PAID by Sony, I'll take anything they say with a grain of salt. They are not exactly "masters" of our industry ;)

3/ Now for part three...

"...the 360 and PS3 will keep up with the Wii..."

Hang on - have I just missed something here? Not only are they not even slightly keeping up at the moment, they are getting their BUTTS kicked. The only thing saving both consoles from further embarassment are Wii manufacturing restrictions. And not only is the PS3 not selling out - its not even close to selling out.

As for the PS3 beating the 360 - I doubt even that will happen this Xmas. Price is too high, and not enough exclusives coming to the PS3. Halo is going to be huge, and will drive 360 sales through Xmas and into next year. I can't see anything on the horizon for the PS3 that will do the same (and that includes MGS4).

...

At least you got one thing right - "We will see". Yes we will... no need to take my word for it, the sales figures speak volumes on their own

 

 

DigitalHero said: There are a couple very simple things going against the PS3 reclaiming #1.  1.  No console in a given generation that was the most expensive never took the first spot against cheaper competitiors.  Look at Saturn, 3DO, Turbo Grafx 16, and Neo Geo for great examples.  2.  This one is kind of superstitious but no console in the past 20 years has ever dominated for more than two generations straight.  Add to the fact that Wii is outselling it by a large margin and Microsoft is formidable competitor makes a Sony "comeback" extrememly hard but not impossible.  I believe Nintendo will be the #1 for this gen. (Just look at vg charts on how fast they are catching up and either PS3 or 360 will be at #2.   Its harder to determine that one.)

Well to you 1st point Saturn never realy had a chance the end of the Genesis was so ugly that sega was widely hated... see 32X Sega CD rip off(PS2 still going strong) All of the others were 1st and last attempt consoles and last attempt too..no exclusive games with no first party games or any fanbase...

As for your second point you mention in the Past 20 years no console has dominated for more than 2 generations straight..You forget to mention that the ONLY system to dominate in 2 straight generations is Sony PS1-PS2 so they have proved something that no console has ever done already (most PS2 owners have not yet jumped to "next gen" but i am possitive that most Gamecube and Xbox owners have converted to Next gen)

I do agree the wii is selling now alot off of the very affordable price and the Mass appeal it has. I do not know if it will be passed by PS3 or not ,but unlike any generation of consoles before there is a clear difference in the PS3/360 compared to the Wii...I really do not think Sony and Microsoft are in direct competition as they are not after the same market The Wii is more of a replacement of the famliy board game concept then a next gen system. Nintendo wants every one to feel comfortable withe the game unit. PS3 and 360 are the next generation Video game consoles for the single player/online multi-player single teen -adult gamer. Lastly the one thing Sony has coming is Games....that will help ,but when the 1st party Sequels start dropping then thats when the real PS3 surge will come ...   ie. the  next Socom, Grand Turismo 4,Rachet&Clank, God of WarIII. Those games coupled with MGS4 those are alot of the titles that will convert many PS2 owners to PS3(and price cuts due to falling costs from bluraydiode and IBM components). 

shams said: windbane said: Yeah, I could make up numbers too but that's all you are doing. It doesn't take that long to port every time. GTA IV was a PS3 game but then changed to multi-platform. Now they will be released the same day. It's not not they didn't have any PS3 code before they decided to port it to the 360. Same thing with DMC4. Moving code to the 360 being easier can be shown by the fact that other capcom games are not being ported over to the PS3. Oblivion didn't take long to port to the PS3 either. Anyway, the guys from Factor 5 (creating Lair) said they've already done things on the PS3 that couldn't be done on the 360 so that's promising for sony. I think that the 360 and PS3 will keep up with the Wii especially since this fall Halo 3, GTA IV, MGS4, etc will come (I really don't want to list the others but there are a lot between the 2 consoles). As for PS3 surpassing the 360, I don't think it's that hard considering the 360 doesn't sell in Japan and only sells half as well as the PS2 and PS1 sold in Europe compared to US numbers. We'll see, though. Hang on, I smell a huge amount of FUD here. Lets address the issues one at a time.. 1/ Do you have any evidence that GTA4 was going to be a PS3 "exclusive", then was switched? No? That's because it wasn't - it would have started either for the 360, or for both systems. And Rockstar have enough people to have three teams on it - one for each platform tech, and one for the game in general. As for Oblivion - do you know WHEN they started porting? It would have been long before the 360 version was released. PS3 engines DON'T appear from thin air you know. I have a friend working on PS3 engine tech (TeamBondi, working on L.A Noire). He was not only saying that it is an immense amount of work to write a *proper* engine for the PS3, he was also saying how disapointed he was in the overall architecture. Coding for the SPU's is much harder than for the 360's multiple cores (lots of reasons). 2/ As already addressed, Factor 5 haven't touched the 360. And considering they are being PAID by Sony, I'll take anything they say with a grain of salt. They are not exactly "masters" of our industry ;) 3/ Now for part three... "...the 360 and PS3 will keep up with the Wii..." Hang on - have I just missed something here? Not only are they not even slightly keeping up at the moment, they are getting their BUTTS kicked. The only thing saving both consoles from further embarassment are Wii manufacturing restrictions. And not only is the PS3 not selling out - its not even close to selling out. As for the PS3 beating the 360 - I doubt even that will happen this Xmas. Price is too high, and not enough exclusives coming to the PS3. Halo is going to be huge, and will drive 360 sales through Xmas and into next year. I can't see anything on the horizon for the PS3 that will do the same (and that includes MGS4). ... At least you got one thing right - "We will see". Yes we will... no need to take my word for it, the sales figures speak volumes on their own

1. Well, I only assumed since every other GTA (since 3) started on the PS2 or PSP.  You assume why?  As for oblivion, do you know?

2.  Paid by Sony = license to lie.  Got it.

3.  The last I checked the 360 hasn't been surpassed yet and the PS3 isn't too far behind yet.  You can't tell me you think the Wii will sellout forever.  There are too many exclusives that the Wii will not get, so I don't think it's going to run away with the title.  

Anyway, my guesses are just as good as yours for now, despite your insider friend.  I think your 3 year timeline versus 2 years is a little much, especially for 2nd generation titles.