omgwtfbbq said: blowfish said: omgwtfbbq said: why is it that Sony fanboys all say "The PS3 has no good games" when they try to defend how poorly the PS3 is doing, yet they then say "The PS3 has all the best games" when they try to defend how great the PS3 is? Does it have all the good games? Or no good games? You can't have it both ways! I'm sorry, but the PS3 has no good games argument is finished, the PS3 games have been released, and it's still not selling. Yet these same people are saying "The Wii has no good games" are not saying "look how well the Wii is selling despite the fact that there aren't any good games! Just wait until they release their big guns!" @blowfish Sony won the last two generations by appealing to those exact same gamers that Nintendo are appealing to. The racer fans, the FPS fans, the RPG fans, probably number around 50 million, tops. Most of Playstation sales went to those people who bought it for a few fun games (buzz, singstar, dance, GTA, whatever), they probably owned about 3 games, spent a total of $200 on it, and played for around 20 hours all up. Either that or parents who bought it for their kids to shut them up for an hour. These people are NOT going to spend $600 on a console Sorry but the hardcore demographic is not as large as everyone claims it to be. Sony will NOT sell 100 million consoles and unless they drop their price very quickly will not come first. To answer you question the ps3 does have some good games but it doesn't have a single one of the ps2's top 15 exclusive franchises released for it yet. When some of those games start to come out then that will improve things for the ps3. Whilst the ps3 has zero of it's predecessors top 15 exclusives the wii already has zelda and paper mario and the 360 has project gotham racing, elder scrolls, dead or alive and call of duty 2. The ps2 has an attach rate of over 10 worldwide, most people didnt just by 3 games. The ps3 still has gta, singstar and buzz, the wii doesn't. The wii can corner the mini game and kids game market but that won't sell you 100+ million console or win you the console war. but you're saying that PS3 has better games than Wii. So how are the games an issue for the PS3 but not the Wii? The PS2 has a high attach rate because there are the hardcore gamers who buy HEAPS of games. I know someone who owns a PS2. He doesn't have the biggest collection of games I've ever seen, but he has a lot of games, around 20. Many have much more. This makes up for the probably 50% of PS2 owners who own less than 5 games. I'm not saying the hardcore market is small, it's not small. But it is NOT 100 million people. And the number of people willing to pay $300 for a games console are smaller than people on these boards think. The PS3 has singstar, buzz, and GTA? Funny, I didn't see them on the store shelves. We must be behind in Australia again ;) Even if they never go to the Wii, it doesn't matter, because there will be new games and franchises that will take advantage of the fact that the Wii is selling well and is cheap. I'm sorry, but the casual gamers are the ones that get your console to 100 million, not the hardcore.

 

Yes i am saying overall in my opinion the ps3 does have better games than the wii. The wii sells more because it is cheaper, it sells more as it already has two of nintendo's top franchise games out and their for more nintendo fans have brought a wii. As well as that kids dont have a clue what 'good' and 'bad' games are, most of them just want to play kiddie licenced games or really simple games which the wii has.

I've never once said the hardcore market is 100 million consoles, but the casual market isn't 100 million either. The ps3 still has the franchises singstar, buzz and gta i never said they were out now. Kids and non games will only get you so far, if you want to succeed you have to have the hardcore market as well. The hardcore lead the way and the casuals follow. 

blowfish said: I've never once said the hardcore market is 100 million consoles, but the casual market isn't 100 million either. The ps3 still has the franchises singstar, buzz and gta i never said they were out now. Kids and non games will only get you so far, if you want to succeed you have to have the hardcore market as well. The hardcore lead the way and the casuals follow.

If hardcore lead the way and casuals follow, Wii most have a lot of hardcore owners.

The non-gamer/casual market is bigger than 100 million, if you could tap it. How many people watch a movie? How many people play games? If anybody can move the industry into markets that isn't in too gamining we could see an incredible growth. How we should do it or if Nintendo is doing the right thing I don't know, BUT the important thing is actuly that you doesn't need the hardcore market to sell more than 100 million if (yes I no it is a big if) you can make gaming really mainstream.

Cipherr said: blowfish said: Cipherr said: ============ Nintendo's best selling console, when they had a commanding monopoly, was 60 million units. They have yet to prove Wii is more than just a fad. If they can keep this system going for more than a couple years, maybe we can say otherwise, but as it stands now, there is no reason to believe Nintendo can or will even hit 60 million, let alone 100 million. ============ Sometimes I wonder if some people even read the things they write or just start typing blindly. How do you say something like the above, yet stand firm on the idea that Sony can turn things around on a dime? I mean, basically whats being said here is that Nintendo has yet to prove it can succeed in staying anywhere near as stable sales wise as they have so far, despite the trending, and record breaking they are currently enjoying. Then in the same breathe saying that is IS reasonable to believe that Sony, who is hitting all times lows left and right trending worse than the last gen failure the GC will rise above all, achieving something never before done in console history to regain the #1 spot? Im sorry, its just a bit of lunacy to throw so much weight behind the idea that the console that is breaking records left and right with unbelievable demand that shows no signs of slowing down is going to somehow, someday halt, and the console that is on life support is going to spring from the ashes like a phoenix and destroy everything in its path. You can most definitely say that its POSSIBLE, because it certainly is. But for those of you that are going way overboard by saying theres no way that the Wii can last despite its stellar performance then going on to say theres no way the PS3 wont rise to #1 despite its horrible performance, I hold you guys in the same space as the crazy Nintendo fans of last gen that ignored reality for about 4 and a half years and jumped from release to release claiming it to be the game that would "right the ship". The same type of behavior we have already seen with the "Wait until VF5" or "Wait until Motorstorm" "Wait for Gundam!" and don't forget "Wait until March NPD, LBP and Home announcements will boost demand!". Now we are in the "Wait until Lair" "Wait until MGS" "Wait until FFantasy" stages. I cant help but feel I'm watching a rerun. Ive seen all of this before.   The problem with what your saying and what alot of nintendo fanboys fail to understand is you can't sell 100+ million consoles unless you appeal to all demographics. The wii right now does not cater for online gaming and even tho it will eventually it won't be in the same league as the 360 or even the ps3. It doesnt appeal to racing enthusiasts, fps fans, 3d fighter fans, rts fans or mature games fans. And before anybody jumps in and tries to claim the wii has excite truck so their for it appeals to racing enthusiasts just stop right their. 1 or 2 games that to begin with aren't that good anyway doesn't now mean that console is sorted for a genre. The wii right now appeals to nintendo fans, mini game/non game fans and kids. Those 3 genres aren't enough to get the wii to over 100+ million let alone win the console war. The xbox360 is going to get a price drop and halo will be out soon, its biggest franchise and that will boost sales. The ps3 will also get a price drop but so far none of the ps2's top 15 exclusive games from last generation have come out for the ps3 yet. How can anybody judge the ps3 without any of its proven top games coming out?? People need to step back and get a reality check.   And I'm going to take your own logic and throw it right back into your face. Because if we take things YOUR way the PS3 is destined to fail, horribly. You yourself are judging what the Wii "caters" to STRICTLY by what it has released in the first 5 months of its lifespan ALONE. So if we are making sweeping judgments based ONLY on what we have seen so far, the PS3 will struggle in Japan until the end of this generation, and will continue to be bested by the GBA in the US? You are judging the Wii's demographic based ONLY on what has been released in the first 5 month when a consoles lifespan is over 5 bloody years! The FACT of the matter is you are the one wrapped up in the 'console wars' not me. You are living in a fantasy land where the CONSOLE itself decides its demographic, and you couldnt be more wrong. The software decides which demographic the console is catered towards NOT the other way around. And as of right now its far FAR too early to tell where the software is going to go a year from now (especially with insane stuff like DQ9 going to the DS, you never know WHATS going to happen nowadays). History in this industry tells us major 3rd party support rallies behind the hardware sold market leader. This is what the Nintendo fans cling to as assurance for Wii domination, and rightfully so. However, this gen there are MAJOR differences, as with the consoles being somewhat segmented because of the lack of horsepower with the Wii. Will that be enough to keep 3rd parties away despite the Wii becoming the WW hardware leader? This is the idea most Sony and MS fans are questioning, and rightfully so as well. We don't have enough information for any of this yet. But it is definitely leaning one way a little more than the other at this point. Another thing you go on to say is that a console cannot sell 100 million without appealing to EVERY demographic. Which is ludicrous considering no console has EVER appealed to EVERY demographic in existence, maybe you were exaggerating, but its hard to tell on these boards. What you MEANT to say is that NO console can sell 100 million without catering to the casual market. The casual market is the largest of the pie by far. The racing fighting hardcore enthusiast you are talking about are the minority. There are FAR more people out there that don't play games at ALL than there are that do. If one could reach into those areas, there are tons of opportunities to sell many more consoles than ever. We believe this is what Nintendo is trying to do. Will they manage to pull it off? I doubt it personally, but whatever, its working for them so far so more power to them. And finally please stop with the "Don't judge PS3 before any of its big guns drop!" Because none of the 3 companies have dropped any of their BIG guns yet except for GoW on MS side. Please RE READ the previous statement and let it sink in. GoW Zelda and Resistance is ALL we have seen this gen. Sony isnt the only one sitting on a stack of 3+ million worldwide selling IP's just laying in the wake waiting to give console sales a shot in the arm mate, so please stop acting like thats the case. Besides, you don't seem to have a problem judging the Wii without its large titles released. The hypocrisy is giving me a headache.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Im judging the wii on what is out now and what is coming out in the future. Most of the games are either mini games, non games, kiddie games, multi format games and a few nintendo games sprinkled on top. 

Software wins out in the end and for the rest of this year the ps3's and 360's software is of better quality compared to the wii.

The problem with your third party going to the top selling hardware arguement this time round, is the wii is nothing like the 360 or the ps3, it is significantly less powerful. Yes last gen the ps2 was less powerful than the gamecube and xbox but no where near the same extent the wii is less powerful than the ps3 and 360. If developers start choosing the wii as their lead platform then tried porting these games to the 360 and ps3 their would be a huge uproar and the gamers would reject these wii ports. Loosing out on the 360 and ps3 market would be a huge loss and makes no sense to the developers when at the very least for most of this generation the 360 and ps3's total hardware install base will be greater than the wii's hardware install base. It makes far more sense to third parties to make either the 360 or ps3 the lead platform then down grade the game to the wii, as it's far easier to do and owners of the wii won't know any different.

The casual market as it stands doesnt equal 100 million and nor does the hardcore market. You cant win the generation without having the majority of the best games. The wii isnt likely to ever have the best racing games, the best first person shooters, the best fighters or the best mature games.

Lol yes both the wii and the 360 have had top proven exclusive franchises released for them, the ps3 hasnt yet. The wii has zelda and paper mario and the 360 has project gotham racing, dead or alive, elder scrolls and call of duty 2. The ps3 has the most proven top rated franchises left to come out and that will make a big difference wether you like it or not.  

robjoh said: blowfish said: I've never once said the hardcore market is 100 million consoles, but the casual market isn't 100 million either. The ps3 still has the franchises singstar, buzz and gta i never said they were out now. Kids and non games will only get you so far, if you want to succeed you have to have the hardcore market as well. The hardcore lead the way and the casuals follow. If hardcore lead the way and casuals follow, Wii most have a lot of hardcore owners. The non-gamer/casual market is bigger than 100 million, if you could tap it. How many people watch a movie? How many people play games? If anybody can move the industry into markets that isn't in too gamining we could see an incredible growth. How we should do it or if Nintendo is doing the right thing I don't know, BUT the important thing is actuly that you doesn't need the hardcore market to sell more than 100 million if (yes I no it is a big if) you can make gaming really mainstream.

No really without the majority of the best games and the hardcore gaming crowd you won't sell over 100 million.

PS3 will sell over 200 million, Sony has people working for them instead of monkeys like Nintendo and Microsoft.

HAHAHAHA if u wont get banned in the next couple of days

hehe he just became my new sig

blowfish said: robjoh said: blowfish said: I've never once said the hardcore market is 100 million consoles, but the casual market isn't 100 million either. The ps3 still has the franchises singstar, buzz and gta i never said they were out now. Kids and non games will only get you so far, if you want to succeed you have to have the hardcore market as well. The hardcore lead the way and the casuals follow. If hardcore lead the way and casuals follow, Wii most have a lot of hardcore owners. The non-gamer/casual market is bigger than 100 million, if you could tap it. How many people watch a movie? How many people play games? If anybody can move the industry into markets that isn't in too gamining we could see an incredible growth. How we should do it or if Nintendo is doing the right thing I don't know, BUT the important thing is actuly that you doesn't need the hardcore market to sell more than 100 million if (yes I no it is a big if) you can make gaming really mainstream. No really without the majority of the best games and the hardcore gaming crowd you won't sell over 100 million.

Ehh there is over 100 million users that is watching movies but never would have thought about playing games, if you could get them to play games you could sell more than 100 millions. I am not saying that it is simple or that it is just like, we are going to get the ignorant bastards to start play games. If you do succed you wouldn't need the hardcore crowd. The only reason why you would need the hardcore is to get the initial sales going.

blowfish said: No really without the majority of the best games and the hardcore gaming crowd you won't sell over 100 million.

What determines the "best" games and who is the "Hardcore gaming crowd"?

The general assumption I see on a lot of these threads is the "best" games are the conventional games that are available on platforms like the PSP and PS3, and the "hardcore gaming crowd" are people who exclusively play those types of conventional games. I won't point out the obvious (that the DS is probably going to break 100 Million inspite of being a system that targeted non-gamers with unconventional games) and just point out a little history. Every generation the types of games that drive sales evolves; the sandbox (GTA) and shooter (Halo) games that sold so many systems for the PS3/XBox/Gamecube were far less important in the previous generation. It is likely that genres we don't currently think are all that important will become the most dominant games of this generation.

blowfish said: Cipherr said: blowfish said: Cipherr said: ============ Nintendo's best selling console, when they had a commanding monopoly, was 60 million units. They have yet to prove Wii is more than just a fad. If they can keep this system going for more than a couple years, maybe we can say otherwise, but as it stands now, there is no reason to believe Nintendo can or will even hit 60 million, let alone 100 million. ============ Sometimes I wonder if some people even read the things they write or just start typing blindly. How do you say something like the above, yet stand firm on the idea that Sony can turn things around on a dime? I mean, basically whats being said here is that Nintendo has yet to prove it can succeed in staying anywhere near as stable sales wise as they have so far, despite the trending, and record breaking they are currently enjoying. Then in the same breathe saying that is IS reasonable to believe that Sony, who is hitting all times lows left and right trending worse than the last gen failure the GC will rise above all, achieving something never before done in console history to regain the #1 spot? Im sorry, its just a bit of lunacy to throw so much weight behind the idea that the console that is breaking records left and right with unbelievable demand that shows no signs of slowing down is going to somehow, someday halt, and the console that is on life support is going to spring from the ashes like a phoenix and destroy everything in its path. You can most definitely say that its POSSIBLE, because it certainly is. But for those of you that are going way overboard by saying theres no way that the Wii can last despite its stellar performance then going on to say theres no way the PS3 wont rise to #1 despite its horrible performance, I hold you guys in the same space as the crazy Nintendo fans of last gen that ignored reality for about 4 and a half years and jumped from release to release claiming it to be the game that would "right the ship". The same type of behavior we have already seen with the "Wait until VF5" or "Wait until Motorstorm" "Wait for Gundam!" and don't forget "Wait until March NPD, LBP and Home announcements will boost demand!". Now we are in the "Wait until Lair" "Wait until MGS" "Wait until FFantasy" stages. I cant help but feel I'm watching a rerun. Ive seen all of this before. The problem with what your saying and what alot of nintendo fanboys fail to understand is you can't sell 100+ million consoles unless you appeal to all demographics. The wii right now does not cater for online gaming and even tho it will eventually it won't be in the same league as the 360 or even the ps3. It doesnt appeal to racing enthusiasts, fps fans, 3d fighter fans, rts fans or mature games fans. And before anybody jumps in and tries to claim the wii has excite truck so their for it appeals to racing enthusiasts just stop right their. 1 or 2 games that to begin with aren't that good anyway doesn't now mean that console is sorted for a genre. The wii right now appeals to nintendo fans, mini game/non game fans and kids. Those 3 genres aren't enough to get the wii to over 100+ million let alone win the console war. The xbox360 is going to get a price drop and halo will be out soon, its biggest franchise and that will boost sales. The ps3 will also get a price drop but so far none of the ps2's top 15 exclusive games from last generation have come out for the ps3 yet. How can anybody judge the ps3 without any of its proven top games coming out?? People need to step back and get a reality check. And I'm going to take your own logic and throw it right back into your face. Because if we take things YOUR way the PS3 is destined to fail, horribly. You yourself are judging what the Wii "caters" to STRICTLY by what it has released in the first 5 months of its lifespan ALONE. So if we are making sweeping judgments based ONLY on what we have seen so far, the PS3 will struggle in Japan until the end of this generation, and will continue to be bested by the GBA in the US? You are judging the Wii's demographic based ONLY on what has been released in the first 5 month when a consoles lifespan is over 5 bloody years! The FACT of the matter is you are the one wrapped up in the 'console wars' not me. You are living in a fantasy land where the CONSOLE itself decides its demographic, and you couldnt be more wrong. The software decides which demographic the console is catered towards NOT the other way around. And as of right now its far FAR too early to tell where the software is going to go a year from now (especially with insane stuff like DQ9 going to the DS, you never know WHATS going to happen nowadays). History in this industry tells us major 3rd party support rallies behind the hardware sold market leader. This is what the Nintendo fans cling to as assurance for Wii domination, and rightfully so. However, this gen there are MAJOR differences, as with the consoles being somewhat segmented because of the lack of horsepower with the Wii. Will that be enough to keep 3rd parties away despite the Wii becoming the WW hardware leader? This is the idea most Sony and MS fans are questioning, and rightfully so as well. We don't have enough information for any of this yet. But it is definitely leaning one way a little more than the other at this point. Another thing you go on to say is that a console cannot sell 100 million without appealing to EVERY demographic. Which is ludicrous considering no console has EVER appealed to EVERY demographic in existence, maybe you were exaggerating, but its hard to tell on these boards. What you MEANT to say is that NO console can sell 100 million without catering to the casual market. The casual market is the largest of the pie by far. The racing fighting hardcore enthusiast you are talking about are the minority. There are FAR more people out there that don't play games at ALL than there are that do. If one could reach into those areas, there are tons of opportunities to sell many more consoles than ever. We believe this is what Nintendo is trying to do. Will they manage to pull it off? I doubt it personally, but whatever, its working for them so far so more power to them. And finally please stop with the "Don't judge PS3 before any of its big guns drop!" Because none of the 3 companies have dropped any of their BIG guns yet except for GoW on MS side. Please RE READ the previous statement and let it sink in. GoW Zelda and Resistance is ALL we have seen this gen. Sony isnt the only one sitting on a stack of 3+ million worldwide selling IP's just laying in the wake waiting to give console sales a shot in the arm mate, so please stop acting like thats the case. Besides, you don't seem to have a problem judging the Wii without its large titles released. The hypocrisy is giving me a headache. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Im judging the wii on what is out now and what is coming out in the future. Most of the games are either mini games, non games, kiddie games, multi format games and a few nintendo games sprinkled on top. Software wins out in the end and for the rest of this year the ps3's and 360's software is of better quality compared to the wii. The problem with your third party going to the top selling hardware arguement this time round, is the wii is nothing like the 360 or the ps3, it is significantly less powerful. Yes last gen the ps2 was less powerful than the gamecube and xbox but no where near the same extent the wii is less powerful than the ps3 and 360. If developers start choosing the wii as their lead platform then tried porting these games to the 360 and ps3 their would be a huge uproar and the gamers would reject these wii ports. Loosing out on the 360 and ps3 market would be a huge loss and makes no sense to the developers when at the very least for most of this generation the 360 and ps3's total hardware install base will be greater than the wii's hardware install base. It makes far more sense to third parties to make either the 360 or ps3 the lead platform then down grade the game to the wii, as it's far easier to do and owners of the wii won't know any different. The casual market as it stands doesnt equal 100 million and nor does the hardcore market. You cant win the generation without having the majority of the best games. The wii isnt likely to ever have the best racing games, the best first person shooters, the best fighters or the best mature games. Lol yes both the wii and the 360 have had top proven exclusive franchises released for them, the ps3 hasnt yet. The wii has zelda and paper mario and the 360 has project gotham racing, dead or alive, elder scrolls and call of duty 2. The ps3 has the most proven top rated franchises left to come out and that will make a big difference wether you like it or not.

Are you even TRYING anymore? You claim to judge the Wii by both its current and future titles. Then go and pigeonhole them all. Not only that but your ENTIRE ARGUMENT is OPINION based. You boldly say that one consoles lineup is flat out BETTER than the other. That may be true for YOU but you don't seem to want to accept that you != to everybody. If ALL it took to become market leader was to have good games available then the PS3 would be DESTROYING Wii right now, Resistance is >>>>>>>>>> Wii sports, Motorstorm is >>>>>>>>>>>>> Excite truck and VF5 alone craps all over everything else the Wii has released thusfar with maybe the exception of Zelda. But thats from MY point of view as a hardcore gamer that could give a crap less about bowling or some 10$ tech demo packed with a wiimote. These games however are mopping up even the high budget stellar titles from the competition because the casuals and non gamers are the MAJORITY. You can cry all you want about how its not possible to be market leader without the backing of the hardcore but you are WRONG. The casuals outnumber us by so much it is ridiculous. Whats even worse, is you go on to argue the very thing I said in the post you quoted! I clearly said that Nintendo fans believe in the user base view and PS3 fans believe in the power difference view. You go and type an entire paragraph saying exactly what I did... Why? Just like the Nintendo fans, your making a GUESS and you have no idea whats going to happen. Dont bring that "It wouldn't make sense for third parties to.." crap into the discussion, because it doesn't make sense honestly that the DS has dominated like it has, nor does it make sense that the PS3 is fresh off of the success of the mother of all consoles (PS2) is doing as bad as it is. Nothing about this gen so far makes much sense. The ps3 has the most proven top rated franchises left to come out and that will make a big difference wether you like it or not. You need to go back and count those titles your talking about. After you have gathered them, remove the ones that aren't substantial (1million sellers and above need only apply) then remove the ones that aren't exclusive, as their impact on console sales (which IS what this thread is about) will be negligible when they are available for another console that happens to be cheaper, then do the same for the other two. You are dead wrong. Sony does not have more PROVEN high seller franchises on the back burner right now than the other 2 consoles. As a matter of fact, the majority of Sonys large sellers are third party titles that could shift or move at any time. Learn the difference between a great game and a system seller. They are NOT one in the same. I'm probably wasting my time point out to you the difference between what you consider to be the "better lineup" vs the actual impact on hardware sold but whatever. What it comes down to is this, I just get this old school Gamecube fan vibe when you say things like "wait until later this year when these great games hit". Why? Because there are good and great PS3 games out now, and the Wii has like nothing.... It has a mediocre Zelda and Wii sports. Its doing better than everything WITHOUT having a good lineup, meanwhile the competition has a much better lineup and they are still getting smoked. And now your trying to tell me what later this year when PS3 gets a few more good games, (alot of them shared with the 360) and Wii gets its equally large software on to the market that somehow this is going to equate to a shift in console sales? This is suggesting that the better the library gets on the Wii the slower the console will sale? Right? It has NOTHING now, but when the killer apps finally arrive, it will be doomed? Whats more likely to happen IMO is the PS3 will see a surge in console sales and rightfully so as later this year the software will be even better. However, so will the Wii as its marquee titles hit the stores in time for the holidays. And finally the Xbox will ALSO surge in sales, likely more so than both of the others in the US due to Halo. The entire issue is if all 3 consoles surge in sales due to better software, how exactly is such a large market share deficit made up? Whether YOU like it or not, all 3 console will have a surge in great software later this year, and neither of the other two consoles are going to be standing still while the PS3 gains market share.