Really? Because I don't think so. All I'm doing in this thread is responding to people that are answering me... as I stated above some time ago. If you're tired of it, stop posting in the thread. It takes two to debate an issue. The reality is that I've brought up several great points and you guys are bending over backwards for well over 100 posts trying to prove me wrong, but have yet to show me anything at all. Nobody has shown me where you're finding the 10% number for NA, nobody is backing up their claim that Mexico is meaningless, nobody is showing me how its possible to have 2.4 million 360's on store shelves, nobody has shown me that Mexico imports "90%" of all its 360's from the US (as you once said), and nobody can show me at all where vgcharts gets its numbers besides the obvious places that any Joe Shmo can. On another note that I just realized... the funniest thing to me about this 10% rule of thumb where you add 10% to US NPD data to find NA, is that when I first started debating this issue, everybody here tried to tell me that NPD data includes NA already. Now, everybody is telling me that "everybody" knows about this 10% rule and its been used forever... ironic that just a week ago or so, you people didn't even understand NPD data, now you're experts. Funny. Anyhow, back to the original point... since you can't show me any of the above to prove your case, you instead just simply ask me to leave. Just realize that nobody is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to read my posts or respond, but if you respond, you can expect a reply. I don't run from any debate whether I win or lose, but you can feel free to run any time!

http://www.gamepro.com/news.cfm?article_id=93548

4. Yes anecdotal evidence is less useful than hard facts. My point was that every store does not need a rediculous amount of stock to reach 1.5 M in stores. And that would be the first time I had heard of the 360 selling out anywhere this holiday season period. Not even most Xbox fanboys would claim that. 2. Sales were not great. If initials indications are correct, the 360 lost the November/December time frame to the Wii. Which was impossible to find. The 360 is doing slightly worse than the Xbox did sales wise. And initially the Gamecube sold over 1.8 M in November and December of release. So the best 360 sales have equaled the best gamecube sales. The point is the PS2 hammered gamecube and xbox when they first came out. They set themselves up with good games, good supply, and a decent price. 360 was not able to capitalize on those. The nex gen war is alive and well. It was over the first year last gen as PS2 put up impossible numbers to catch. I don't really care how well the PS2 sold the last couple of years. The fight was over.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- everybody keeps citing this 10% figure... telling me it's been that way "forever" and that "everybody" knows about this, and it's the way "everybody" does it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- So prove them wrong. The burden of proof is on you. You're the one trying to prove the figures are wrong. So produce some evidence! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, NOBODY can show me where they are getting this, and I can't find anything to support that notion. I also can't find anything to suggest that Mexico is included in the 10%. And as you stated in your last post, you deem Mexico "unimportant". And, while I can't find any exact figures, I would say evidence points that that isn't true (an official launch, an "emerging" country in video game sales, a recent big event to launch a single game (Viva Pinata), etc... ) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Look, Mexican numbers don't exist. Its great that the 360 officially launched there, and that some source used the word "emerging." But you don't have any hard data either way. All we've got is speculation going back and forth, but again, the burden of proof is on the accuser. Its very convenient for you to have finally settled on a bunch of numbers you can't find to claim this site is misrepresenting them. That way, this can go on forever. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have no problem with that "out of date" theory, but it would definitely be nice if vgcharts displayed a rough idea of when the stats are up to date through. For all we know, they could be showing the totals for Dec 1st, right? How would we know any different? One of the problems with this debate is that the numbers have changed about 3 times since we started, and we're now 10 days into January... if the figures are up to date (as some suggest they are), then it's about impossible to argue their NA figure as I am no seeing that I have NO idea what vgcharts is reporting as its Dec 31st NA number anymore!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for reiterating my point. Wish you had realized that earlier. We could still hit "pause" until vgcharts posts a December estimate, eh? The NPD US numbers will no doubt be circling the web later tonight...

-------------------------------------------------------------- but here are some facts: http://www.theesa.com/canada/press_release_03.php?printable=1 http://news.com.com/Video+game+sales+up+8+percent+in+2004/2100-1047_3-5540467.html Now, let me summarize these for you: 1) In 2004 - total videogame software sales in Canada totalled $377.4 million 2) In 2004 - total videogame software sales in the US totalled $5.8 billion -------------------------------------------------------------- You slightly flubbed up there, but the point is still made. The 5.8 billion number is "excluding PC sales," while the 377 million number is only home console sales. Better numbers would have been the 6.2 billion including PC sales in US, and the 590 million including all three in Canada. Closer to 10%, too. And bravo for actually finding some numbers.

Can somebody... ANYBODY... point out to me where I asked to be proven about "Canada" sales being 10% of the US????????? You guys just went on at length trying to prove an argument that never took place. I think the fact that Canada's population is 10% of the US's, was a pretty good indicator by itself. What I have asked... repeatedly is how you guys figure that "North America" is 10% of US sales? You guys constantly try to tell me that Canada is the only other country in NA. The crux of this argument is YOUR guys's claim that Mexico is "meaningless", that it imports "90%" of all its consoles from the US, that it sells ZERO consoles (as somebody said), or that in 14 months of release the console has merely sold at the most 30k to a population of 110 million. You people were the one who attacked me when I tried to add in any amount for Mexico... not the other way around. I'm using common sense a logic, apparently something you guys are incapable of. Why are you trying so hard to focus on Canada, or why are you so hesitant to admit Mexico does account for some sales? MS didn't launch there and doesn't throw special events there because they pump out ZERO consoles in 14 months. Even if they account for a mere 5% of US sales, that would still be significant enough to add in. Your willingness to chop off every country that you deem unimportant may explain your over eagerness to swallow any lowball figure that vgcharts presents to you. I came to this site because somebody told me they believed it 100% because it was so "transparent" with its stats. I'm finding that nobody here can tell me anything about where they get their stats, or what there stats are - except for the painfully obvious ones (NPD, Media Create). Meaning, I have no way of knowing they're not just making it up, just like nexgenwars.

Just to clarify one thing... it took the Xbox 19 months to reach the 10 million shipped level. The 360 did it in 13... tying the PS2 as the fastest to reach the 10 million mark. The 360's sales are not behind the Xbox, and at this point aren't behind anybody's sales figures for a launch. While it's HIGHLY unlikely it will match the PS2's total in the end (beyond unlikely, actually), it will clearly sell at least double of the Xbox 1 or GameCube, and I doubt many people here would argue that. And, I'll gladly take a bet with you if you don't think it'll outsell the Xbox 1!

------------------------------------------------------------------ The crux of this argument is YOUR guys's claim that Mexico is "meaningless", that it imports "90%" of all its consoles from the US, that it sells ZERO consoles (as somebody said), or that in 14 months of release the console has merely sold at the most 30k to a population of 110 million. You people were the one who attacked me when I tried to add in any amount for Mexico... not the other way around. I'm using common sense a logic, apparently something you guys are incapable of. Why are you trying so hard to focus on Canada, or why are you so hesitant to admit Mexico does account for some sales? MS didn't launch there and doesn't throw special events there because they pump out ZERO consoles in 14 months. Even if they account for a mere 5% of US sales, that would still be significant enough to add in. ------------------------------------------------------------------ I'd say it'd have to be a little more than 5% to be significant. 5% is probably within NPD's margin of error! You're not really using "common sense and logic," you're using your own speculation about what MIGHT have been sold in Mexico... I think your initial guess was 1.5 million for Canada and Mexico... Hopefully everyone agrees that there certainly have been SOME consoles sold in Mexico. And maybe vgcharts is adding in a very modest amount for Mexico, maybe not... Regardless, assuming they have the same policy for all consoles, we can still look at things comparitively, both with other current gen and with legacy consoles. Now maybe the 80% sell-through their 8.34 million number represents should be a little higher. But certainly not as high as the 95% nexgenwars suggest, and they are basically your other option. When it comes to sales research, you just can't account for everything. At the moment, 360 is getting the short end of the stick for sure, because it has completed its launch in far more minor regions. But there isn't much you or I or vgcharts can do. Looking through this site, you can't deny that they have extensive videogame sales research, the most complete that I have ever seen anyways, and it is generally consistent with widely reported and discussed sales numbers. Now, as for how total 360 sales will end up? I expect it will continue its slow climb beyond XBox's month-to-month numbers as people see it as a more and more viable alternative to the PlayStation brand, and with 6 years on the market instead of 4, it should sell some 40-50 million WW. The question for MS long term is when can they start making a profit? Supposedly the hardware is making profit now, but the division is still in the red. Any profits will mean more long-term security for XBox owners.

Um... Exactly.

Well, to shed a little light on how vgcharts comes up with its figures, I'm attempting to do a little research on his earlier posts over at the GAF forums. Apparently, he feels NPD under-reports figures (which most agree, with some saying up to 20% of the actual figure), and figured out a calculation based on something to do with when the new model PStwo was released, the old inventory left over, and the NPD stats to that point. So, he doesn't have any exact figures either, and uses a simple formula that he came up with to compute NA... based on under-reporting of NPD and a guestimate of Canada's sales. I didn't see anything for accounting for Mexico's sales. And, I think where the biggest error is - as you pointed out Erik - is that the 360 has launched in a lot more minor countries then the Wii or PS3. It's likely that the 360 is getting the short end of the stick (as you say) because of if. If he is using the EXACT same formulas for each console, then that most definitely would not be fair, and you'd either be severly under-reporting the 360's numbers, or over reporting the other consoles as they are not on level playing fields in terms of their launches.