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Project Cafe/3DS and the abandoning of the consumer

Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Project Cafe/3DS and the abandoning of the consumer

zarx said:
Smashchu2 said:
Mr Khan said:
Smashchu2 said:
Mr Khan said:

These Malstrom inspired unfoundedly negative threads are giving me migraines. Cherry pick a few games and statistics, declare that this defines Nintendo's entire direction, then declare doom

It's just as asinine as the people earlier in the generation who cherry-picked Nintendo's casual moves and declared that they abandoned the core. It's the same damn thing just from a different perspective

What statistics are they cherry picking? Is it that Net income is down 66%. Is it that Sony has more games in the top 15 in Japan since the DS launched (9 to 8). Is it the one where the 3DS is selling below expectations. Or maybe the one where Nintendogs did not being in Wii customers and is not selling anywhere near the first one. Or maybe the one where the PSP is outselling the 3DS.

and where does the tale of the DS itself factor into all of this? Taking a snapshot of the market and using it to make declarations of broader trends is cherry-picking at its core

Cherry picking is selective attention. it would be looking at a few things and ignoring the rest. But I was easily able to come up with many things that are going wrong and showing this system is doing poorly. I have yet to hear why this system is doing well. But you mentioned the DS, so let's look at it.

The DS had a worse line up of Games than the 3DS and had very strong compition from the PSP. It was thought that Sony would take the handheld market. The 3DS has Nintendogs (the sequel to the system that made the DS) is selling to a warm market and has no compeition. By all of this, the 3DS should be doing far better.

There are far to many stats to show that this isn't doing well. But how about we look at the sales charts.


That is Japan and the earthquake has had a large impact as well as the fact that DS was a holliday launch and had Warioware touched and Super Mario 64 DS. 

Iwata himself has mentioned that sales are low in both the US and Europe where there was no earthquake. Just this week, the PSP outsold the 3DS in Europe.



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zarx said:
axt113 said:
zarx said:
axt113 said:

No need to counter, look at the sales of the 3DS, what is happening in reality is the best argument of them all


How does the fact that the 3DS is selling slightly below expectations due to high price, a gimmick that people don't want (3D) and lack of compelling content from Nintendo exept for casual or oldschool gamers (which is a deliberate move by Nintendo to try and make a more favorable market for 3rd parties) not to mention so many god damn ports counter anything I have said?

It counters your argument if anything...

Nintendo has traditionally been very holliday heavy anyway and we won't really know how the 3DS is doing untill the holidays.

So are you even going to try?


How does it counter my argument at all?  Casual and old school games, ROFL, the 3DS lineup is far from a casual and old school friendly lineup, nothing you have said has disproved my argument that Nintendo is going in a wrong direction, and the sales completely support my argument.

I see no point in trying to refute your points when they really have no basis in reality and that assessment will be continued to be borne out in sales.


but all may aguments have data to back them up.

So are you saying that Pilot wings, Nintendogs and a 2D fighting game are not casual or old school? They are all simple pick up and play games.

lets look at Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas for a seccond a game that has sold over 25 million copies is a 3D sandbox one of the most complex genres in video games and Call of Duty: BO another 3D game that has sold over 25 million. Obviusly Nintendo should just make sandbox games, FPS' and sports themed minigame collections from now on because they sell the best obviusly they have been going in the wrong direction as these games sell the best...

See I can make your agrument as well

Also the origonal Super Mario Bros sold over 40 million New Super Mario Bros. Wii only managed 22 million obviusly 2D Mario sales are declining and Nintendo should be trying to find more successfull themes because at this rate sales will be below 3D mario...

minigame collections and Kart racers on the other hand have never sold better...

Oh I forgot you are really just but hurt that Nintendo aren't making the 2D marios and 8-bit games that you like.


I'm saying as I have been saying, its not just about one game (if you think that, you have misunderstood my argument), its a direction, you need more than just pilotwings and nintendogs to set up a direction of the system, these are just two games, when the big games announced are OoT and a 3D mario, its clear the direction is all wrong, and the sales are bearing it out, games like 3D Mario and OoT just don't have the value for customers to buy the 3DS, they goin a wrong direction for most consumers.

Look at the Wii, for an example of percieved direction when it launched,people could easily see the direction of the system, it was designed to get people into gaming, to expand the audience and  combat disinterest in gaming, and there was a lineup, both at launch and announced that was pushing that direction.

Comparing the original Mario which was a bundled game to NSMB Wii is a poor argument, you can't really compare the sales as the situation of the two games was different.

San Andreas and a few shooters like COD,  are well selling games, although not the 25 million you think, San Andreas on the PS2 and XB sold a little over 21 million combined, but those are a couple of breakout titles, and whether they drive momentum on a system is debatable (PS3 and 360 were loaded with them and yet for most of the gen trailed the Wii badly, only Nintendo's own mistakes caused the Wii to decline below the sales levels of the PS3 and 360), this is not a path for Nintendo to take, since creating games that will combat these two already well established franchises as well as many other clones is a waste of resources and time.  This is why its a good third party title to make, but not really a first party title.



Smashchu2 said:
Mr Khan said:
Smashchu2 said:
Mr Khan said:

These Malstrom inspired unfoundedly negative threads are giving me migraines. Cherry pick a few games and statistics, declare that this defines Nintendo's entire direction, then declare doom

It's just as asinine as the people earlier in the generation who cherry-picked Nintendo's casual moves and declared that they abandoned the core. It's the same damn thing just from a different perspective

What statistics are they cherry picking? Is it that Net income is down 66%. Is it that Sony has more games in the top 15 in Japan since the DS launched (9 to 8). Is it the one where the 3DS is selling below expectations. Or maybe the one where Nintendogs did not being in Wii customers and is not selling anywhere near the first one. Or maybe the one where the PSP is outselling the 3DS.

and where does the tale of the DS itself factor into all of this? Taking a snapshot of the market and using it to make declarations of broader trends is cherry-picking at its core

Cherry picking is selective attention. it would be looking at a few things and ignoring the rest. But I was easily able to come up with many things that are going wrong and showing this system is doing poorly. I have yet to hear why this system is doing well. But you mentioned the DS, so let's look at it.

The DS had a worse line up of Games than the 3DS and had very strong compition from the PSP. It was thought that Sony would take the handheld market. The 3DS has Nintendogs (the sequel to the system that made the DS) is selling to a warm market and has no compeition. By all of this, the 3DS should be doing far better.

There are far to many stats to show that this isn't doing well. But how about we look at the sales charts.

Right. And look at that bounce there that's the only thing keeping DS up. That's the holiday season, that is. 3DS will likely rise to match the PSP somewhere in that midpoint, and somewhere off the chart chronologically start shooting up. It started at the same sharp drop, just with no first holiday to fix that



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

axt113 said:
zarx said:
axt113 said:
zarx said:
axt113 said:

No need to counter, look at the sales of the 3DS, what is happening in reality is the best argument of them all


How does the fact that the 3DS is selling slightly below expectations due to high price, a gimmick that people don't want (3D) and lack of compelling content from Nintendo exept for casual or oldschool gamers (which is a deliberate move by Nintendo to try and make a more favorable market for 3rd parties) not to mention so many god damn ports counter anything I have said?

It counters your argument if anything...

Nintendo has traditionally been very holliday heavy anyway and we won't really know how the 3DS is doing untill the holidays.

So are you even going to try?


How does it counter my argument at all?  Casual and old school games, ROFL, the 3DS lineup is far from a casual and old school friendly lineup, nothing you have said has disproved my argument that Nintendo is going in a wrong direction, and the sales completely support my argument.

I see no point in trying to refute your points when they really have no basis in reality and that assessment will be continued to be borne out in sales.


but all may aguments have data to back them up.

So are you saying that Pilot wings, Nintendogs and a 2D fighting game are not casual or old school? They are all simple pick up and play games.

lets look at Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas for a seccond a game that has sold over 25 million copies is a 3D sandbox one of the most complex genres in video games and Call of Duty: BO another 3D game that has sold over 25 million. Obviusly Nintendo should just make sandbox games, FPS' and sports themed minigame collections from now on because they sell the best obviusly they have been going in the wrong direction as these games sell the best...

See I can make your agrument as well

Also the origonal Super Mario Bros sold over 40 million New Super Mario Bros. Wii only managed 22 million obviusly 2D Mario sales are declining and Nintendo should be trying to find more successfull themes because at this rate sales will be below 3D mario...

minigame collections and Kart racers on the other hand have never sold better...

Oh I forgot you are really just but hurt that Nintendo aren't making the 2D marios and 8-bit games that you like.


I'm saying as I have been saying, its not just about one game (if you think that, you have misunderstood my argument), its a direction, you need more than just pilotwings and nintendogs to set up a direction of the system, these are just two games, when the big games announced are OoT and a 3D mario, its clear the direction is all wrong, and the sales are bearing it out, games like 3D Mario and OoT just don't have the value for customers to buy the 3DS, they goin a wrong direction for most consumers.

Look at the Wii, for an example of percieved direction when it launched,people could easily see the direction of the system, it was designed to get people into gaming, to expand the audience and  combat disinterest in gaming, and there was a lineup, both at launch and announced that was pushing that direction.

Comparing the original Mario which was a bundled game to NSMB Wii is a poor argument, you can't really compare the sales as the situation of the two games was different.

San Andreas and a few shooters like COD,  are well selling games, although not the 25 million you think, San Andreas on the PS2 and XB sold a little over 21 million combined, but those are a couple of breakout titles, and whether they drive momentum on a system is debatable (PS3 and 360 were loaded with them and yet for most of the gen trailed the Wii badly, only Nintendo's own mistakes caused the Wii to decline below the sales levels of the PS3 and 360), this is not a path for Nintendo to take, since creating games that will combat these two already well established franchises as well as many other clones is a waste of resources and time.  This is why its a good third party title to make, but not really a first party title.

The casual/mainstream consumer lapsed gamer what ever you want to call them are not looking at release lists to see what's comming they are not like the core that will buy a system for future games, they will wait untill there is compelling software that they want, ether being advertised to them or they hear about them through word of mouth.

No of course Pilot wings and Nintendogs is not enough, because it's old short content that is way overpriced, Nintendo's reall problem right now (other than content that will come in time and price) is competition, none of the games on the 3DS that aren't ports is of low quality or to similar to past games, while the DS, iOS, Android and in Japan the PSP all have more cheaper content and that is why the 3DS isn't selling. It has nothing to do with direction or future games, it all has to do with the current lack of good origonal content and high price oh and in my opnion terrible advertising. Content is coming, lots of it with tones of veriaty and by the end of the year 3DS sales will have picked up, mark my words once Kart Mario and the eShop are up to speed sales will pick up, but also the sales will not explode untill the first redesign comes in with a bigger battery Nintendo handhelds always sell much better after the first redesign. 

NSMB Wii was bundled and I thought that that was an obvius joke anyway...

Actually every COD after 4 has sold over 20 mill, and while they are brakeout hits so were NSMB, Wii fit/play etc. As for GTA's sales you are forgetting the PC and XBLA versions  it's sold over 25 mill. As for the PS360 sales if you had read my previus posts you would know why that is they were too core focused so hardware suffered but software is stronger if you remove the slaes of Wii sports from the Wii's software totals you would see that both the 360 and PS3 have better tie ratios (number of games sold per console) are much better than the Wii's. 

Drwaing a diverse range of consumers to the console is a first party title's job as well as to make money, just one type of game will lead to a consumer base that will only buy a lot of one type of game. Which unfortunatly for the Wii Nintendo managed to do despite it's best efforts. Also you will notice that the only 2D platformer to sell well on the Wii is NSMB Wii, Nintendo's other attempts to tap into that market (Kirby, Donky kong etc) all did worse than Galaxy.



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

lol this guy is basically saying if nintendo doesn't come out with the types of games he prefers then they will fail



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Mr Khan said:
Smashchu2 said:
Mr Khan said:
Smashchu2 said:
Mr Khan said:

These Malstrom inspired unfoundedly negative threads are giving me migraines. Cherry pick a few games and statistics, declare that this defines Nintendo's entire direction, then declare doom

It's just as asinine as the people earlier in the generation who cherry-picked Nintendo's casual moves and declared that they abandoned the core. It's the same damn thing just from a different perspective

What statistics are they cherry picking? Is it that Net income is down 66%. Is it that Sony has more games in the top 15 in Japan since the DS launched (9 to 8). Is it the one where the 3DS is selling below expectations. Or maybe the one where Nintendogs did not being in Wii customers and is not selling anywhere near the first one. Or maybe the one where the PSP is outselling the 3DS.

and where does the tale of the DS itself factor into all of this? Taking a snapshot of the market and using it to make declarations of broader trends is cherry-picking at its core

Cherry picking is selective attention. it would be looking at a few things and ignoring the rest. But I was easily able to come up with many things that are going wrong and showing this system is doing poorly. I have yet to hear why this system is doing well. But you mentioned the DS, so let's look at it.

The DS had a worse line up of Games than the 3DS and had very strong compition from the PSP. It was thought that Sony would take the handheld market. The 3DS has Nintendogs (the sequel to the system that made the DS) is selling to a warm market and has no compeition. By all of this, the 3DS should be doing far better.

There are far to many stats to show that this isn't doing well. But how about we look at the sales charts.

Right. And look at that bounce there that's the only thing keeping DS up. That's the holiday season, that is. 3DS will likely rise to match the PSP somewhere in that midpoint, and somewhere off the chart chronologically start shooting up. It started at the same sharp drop, just with no first holiday to fix that

Nintendo has been able to sell extremly well outside of the holiday season. They did it with the Wii and the DS. Why isn't the 3DS doing it.



Smashchu2 said:
Mr Khan said:
Smashchu2 said:

Cherry picking is selective attention. it would be looking at a few things and ignoring the rest. But I was easily able to come up with many things that are going wrong and showing this system is doing poorly. I have yet to hear why this system is doing well. But you mentioned the DS, so let's look at it.

The DS had a worse line up of Games than the 3DS and had very strong compition from the PSP. It was thought that Sony would take the handheld market. The 3DS has Nintendogs (the sequel to the system that made the DS) is selling to a warm market and has no compeition. By all of this, the 3DS should be doing far better.

There are far to many stats to show that this isn't doing well. But how about we look at the sales charts.

Right. And look at that bounce there that's the only thing keeping DS up. That's the holiday season, that is. 3DS will likely rise to match the PSP somewhere in that midpoint, and somewhere off the chart chronologically start shooting up. It started at the same sharp drop, just with no first holiday to fix that

Nintendo has been able to sell extremly well outside of the holiday season. They did it with the Wii and the DS. Why isn't the 3DS doing it.

Ah, but they did *not* do it with the DS in its earliest weeks, as proven by that chart. Aside from that third week bounce, those numbers are nothing to brag about against 3DSes, slightly better at a level that is negligible

Or are we looking at two very different charts?



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

alfredofroylan said:

SNES wasn't a failure. It was the first time that Nintendo faced a real competitor and both fight for the same market, because of that the market was splitted in two, also you mention Galaxy as an example of a games "jamed" check the sales it's one of the best selling games of this generation.

Also what Wii/DS consumer are we talking about?, most of the "casual" consumers that bought products like Wii Fit, Sprts, Brain Academy. etc. only bought them for the hype ut never bother to support other options in entretainment for the same system; You can't sustain a bussiness model like that.

There was hype for those games? All I remeber were people on the Internet claiming they were signs of the Apocalypse. And the members of the expanded audience buys games, games they find enjoyable. Otherwise please explain how Mario Kart DS and Mario Kart Wii sold over 20 million units.



Mr Khan said:
Smashchu2 said:
Mr Khan said:
Smashchu2 said:
 

Cherry picking is selective attention. it would be looking at a few things and ignoring the rest. But I was easily able to come up with many things that are going wrong and showing this system is doing poorly. I have yet to hear why this system is doing well. But you mentioned the DS, so let's look at it.

The DS had a worse line up of Games than the 3DS and had very strong compition from the PSP. It was thought that Sony would take the handheld market. The 3DS has Nintendogs (the sequel to the system that made the DS) is selling to a warm market and has no compeition. By all of this, the 3DS should be doing far better.

There are far to many stats to show that this isn't doing well. But how about we look at the sales charts.

 

Right. And look at that bounce there that's the only thing keeping DS up. That's the holiday season, that is. 3DS will likely rise to match the PSP somewhere in that midpoint, and somewhere off the chart chronologically start shooting up. It started at the same sharp drop, just with no first holiday to fix that

Nintendo has been able to sell extremly well outside of the holiday season. They did it with the Wii and the DS. Why isn't the 3DS doing it.

Ah, but they did *not* do it with the DS in its earliest weeks, as proven by that chart. Aside from that third week bounce, those numbers are nothing to brag about against 3DSes, slightly better at a level that is negligible

Or are we looking at two very different charts?

As I've said before, the 3DS should be doing BETTER. It's not. Heck, even still, people are buying the 6 year old PSP over the new 3DS. The DS was able to do well because of games like Nintendogs and New Super Mario Bros. Nintendogs is already on the 3DS and DS owners are not upgrading. DS owners do not want a 3DS. There also isn't a 2D Mario in sight. The only saving grace is Mario Kart and Animal Crossing, but if Nintendogs did not help, then why would these games?

The DS had a weak launch for many reasons but mostly due to launching with an N64 game. The system starting doing well when it made games that were like NES and SNES games as well as new games (Brain Age, Nintendogs). The 3DS will soon have OoT which will also not help the system. Time will tell, but DS owners are looking to not upgrade and they will reject the value of 3D. This is more serious then people think because Nintendo's handheld market has been tarnished.



Smashchu2 said:
Mr Khan said:

Ah, but they did *not* do it with the DS in its earliest weeks, as proven by that chart. Aside from that third week bounce, those numbers are nothing to brag about against 3DSes, slightly better at a level that is negligible

Or are we looking at two very different charts?

As I've said before, the 3DS should be doing BETTER. It's not. Heck, even still, people are buying the 6 year old PSP over the new 3DS. The DS was able to do well because of games like Nintendogs and New Super Mario Bros. Nintendogs is already on the 3DS and DS owners are not upgrading. DS owners do not want a 3DS. There also isn't a 2D Mario in sight. The only saving grace is Mario Kart and Animal Crossing, but if Nintendogs did not help, then why would these games?

The DS had a weak launch for many reasons but mostly due to launching with an N64 game. The system starting doing well when it made games that were like NES and SNES games as well as new games (Brain Age, Nintendogs). The 3DS will soon have OoT which will also not help the system. Time will tell, but DS owners are looking to not upgrade and they will reject the value of 3D. This is more serious then people think because Nintendo's handheld market has been tarnished.

So we're holding new handhelds to higher standards than others historically.

Gotcha



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.