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Sony’s War on Makers, Hackers, and Innovators

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Kasz216 said:
alekth said:

2-3 months' wages is extreme for Europe, it would still be a fraction (though not such a small one) for the ones who would have invested in consoles, and arguably for young adults on a good job comparable or better than for Western teens . Music and films are cheaper still, still get pirated to hell and back. A lot of that frankly goes with mentality, partly with the latter two having had more prohibitive prices in the past, partly with the fact that not a lot was available for years after the Iron Curtain, plus pretty much non-existant control.

This was in a post on GAF a couple of weeks ago:

 

Plus, Sony are going to lose every small market they have now - I live in Bulgaria, and I used to work for the second biggest retailer in country. Almost 95% of console software sales in the country until now are coming from the PS3. Nobody play original Xbox 360 and Wii games in Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia etc. I'm thinking that Asia is also huge market for Sony - market that they will lose on software level if pirating full games becomes on PC and Dreamcast level easy.

2-3 months is like Brazil.  Possibly higher.

As for that post on gaf... I'm supposed to believe someone who probably worked as a stock boy in the equilvent of a best buy about the numbers sold in Bulgaria?   It's a shame we don't have a breakdown for software like we do hardware.  I just remember people on this site who claimed 95% sales in Iberia were PS3 related.  Didn't end up that way in reality.

Aside from which, you keep making arguements which include pricing, or past pricing structure... which would be irrelevent when it comes to piracy.

If a game cost 2-3 months of wages that would imply the console cost over a year of salary.

So it's safe to assume that for those owners of console it isn't 2-3 months of salary....

The consoles being priced as they are, if you can afford the console, you can afford a few games/year...

Besides in countries like Brazil there is a decent sized middle class. They don't represent as huge a percentage of the population as in Wertern economies, but Brazil population being much bigger, the middle sized class still represent several dozen million of families...



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

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Interesting read.  I haven't gone through every comment, and skimmed most of the history part of the post dealing with Sony's past "trangressions," but I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents about a couple points that were made.  Excuse me if these points were already brought up.

I think the analogy between hacking Kinect and hacking the PS3 is a bit off.  The proper analogy would be if the XBox360 were hacked and Microsoft decided to embrace the hackers by releasing an SDK for the XBox360.  Hacking the Kinect and releasing an SDK for it is akin to hacking the PS Eye/Move to work on the PC and releasing an SDK for it.  Dr. Richard Marks supports releasing an SDK for the PS Move, but I doubt Sony will ever release it.  And while Sony isn't "embracing" Move hackers by releasing the SDK, I haven't heard of them going after anyone who hacked the DualShock3, PS Eye, or Move controllers to work on the PC.  While I would love to see Sony release something akin to XNA and have their own counterpart to XBLIG, I'm not going to berate them for not doing so.

I fail to see how the last part of the article, regarding innovators, bears any relation to what is being discussed.  Yes, independent innovators have been responsible for some of the greatest breakthoughs in science and technology.  And no, I don't want to see any innovators stifled.  But I don't see how hacking the PS3 is in any way innovative, or motivated by the desire to progress science and technology.  I disagree that GeoHot is some sort of hero or role model we should all admire, though I readily admit that he is very smart and talented.

Personally, I don't believe that Sony has a case.  I despise piracy but hacking is completely different, and I think anyone attempting to relate the two is grasping at straws.  What would be scary is if Sony does win, because it could set a dangerous precedent for future cases.  I'm not going to go as far as claiming that people who don't see this fact are "sheeple" and I'm not quite prone to believe in some sort of dystopian future as I think some others are, but I am conscious to how future cases/laws could pan out depending on the outcome of this case.

Piracy is a whole different can of worms, and I'm not going to touch it in this thread.  I don't even think any discussion about piracy belongs here.

As a final thought, I hope 2 things.  I hope that Sony can secure the PSN from hackers.  I don't think there is anything they can do now to stop people from hacking their PS3's, but I really do hope that they can stop those people from using the PSN.  Not because I hate hackers, but because I would hate to see third party developers lose faith in the PS3, and I think securing the PSN would at least help alleviate any concerns they might have.

And I hope that Sony drops or loses their cases against any hackers.  If they want to go after someone, they should be going after people who are pirating their software (good luck with that), not people who are doing something within their legal rights (for now at least).



Ail said:
Kasz216 said:
alekth said:

2-3 months' wages is extreme for Europe, it would still be a fraction (though not such a small one) for the ones who would have invested in consoles, and arguably for young adults on a good job comparable or better than for Western teens . Music and films are cheaper still, still get pirated to hell and back. A lot of that frankly goes with mentality, partly with the latter two having had more prohibitive prices in the past, partly with the fact that not a lot was available for years after the Iron Curtain, plus pretty much non-existant control.

This was in a post on GAF a couple of weeks ago:

 

Plus, Sony are going to lose every small market they have now - I live in Bulgaria, and I used to work for the second biggest retailer in country. Almost 95% of console software sales in the country until now are coming from the PS3. Nobody play original Xbox 360 and Wii games in Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia etc. I'm thinking that Asia is also huge market for Sony - market that they will lose on software level if pirating full games becomes on PC and Dreamcast level easy.

2-3 months is like Brazil.  Possibly higher.

As for that post on gaf... I'm supposed to believe someone who probably worked as a stock boy in the equilvent of a best buy about the numbers sold in Bulgaria?   It's a shame we don't have a breakdown for software like we do hardware.  I just remember people on this site who claimed 95% sales in Iberia were PS3 related.  Didn't end up that way in reality.

Aside from which, you keep making arguements which include pricing, or past pricing structure... which would be irrelevent when it comes to piracy.

If a game cost 2-3 months of wages that would imply the console cost over a year of salary.

So it's safe to assume that for those owners of console it isn't 2-3 months of salary....

The consoles being priced as they are, if you can afford the console, you can afford a few games/year...

Besides in countries like Brazil there is a decent sized middle class. They don't represent as huge a percentage of the population as in Wertern economies, but Brazil population being much bigger, the middle sized class still represent several dozen million of families...

Not really?  If it takes you a long time to save up the money to buy the console, it very much proves why you can't afford to pay for the games, and why you would't be buying a console in the first place if you had to pay for them.



For the record, in 2007 a Wii cost $1000 dollars in Brazil.  (American dollars.)  1800 for the PS3.

With games ranging between $200-$300

Per Capita Income of Brazil?

$5,052.

So... not really that affordable for the middle class.  Though I was off on the price.  It's more like half a months salary.  Which is still, you know ridiculious.  Guess the Brazilian people I know are a bit poorer then average.  Not that surprisng considering their gini coefficent.

Of course that's probably why they import from the US so much, but you can't quite drive up the US every time you wanna pick up a new game.



I applaude sony for at least trying to do something and taking a pro-active approach. If you took something out of a store without paying for it,should the store not do anything about it. At the end of day Sony is in the business of making money,so would'nt you want to protect your investment the best you could?



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Damn good article/read, it's very true this isn't the Sony I grew up with that had the best hardware on the market and everyone praised them for it.  Modding isn't the problem and if they're just going to be sue crazy about it, it's going to run off many of their divoted base.  It's pretty sad to see those that believe modding is an issue, most of it is propaganda produced by Sony to show why it's bad, but in reality modding typically allows the base to take care of itself rather than letting it stagnate waiting for Sony to make a new program or the like.

They're cracking down on Geohot but I highly doubt Sony is going to bully their way through this one, Geohot is seasoned, he knows what he's doing when he mods, and he knows not to make anything that allows for piracy, the man only opens up technology for the community, if the community takes it and starts creating illegal programs thats on them and not Geohot, period.



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Kasz216 said:

For the record, in 2007 a Wii cost $1000 dollars in Brazil.  (American dollars.)  1800 for the PS3.

With games ranging between $200-$300

Per Capita Income of Brazil?

$5,052.

So... not really that affordable for the middle class.  Though I was off on the price.  It's more like half a months salary.  Which is still, you know ridiculious.  Guess the Brazilian people I know are a bit poorer then average.  Not that surprisng considering their gini coefficent.

Of course that's probably why they import from the US so much, but you can't quite drive up the US every time you wanna pick up a new game.

Like I said the high price of the console actually makes it so that those that can afford it can afford games after its purchase...



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

Ail said:
Kasz216 said:

For the record, in 2007 a Wii cost $1000 dollars in Brazil.  (American dollars.)  1800 for the PS3.

With games ranging between $200-$300

Per Capita Income of Brazil?

$5,052.

So... not really that affordable for the middle class.  Though I was off on the price.  It's more like half a months salary.  Which is still, you know ridiculious.  Guess the Brazilian people I know are a bit poorer then average.  Not that surprisng considering their gini coefficent.

Of course that's probably why they import from the US so much, but you can't quite drive up the US every time you wanna pick up a new game.

Like I said the high price of the console actually makes it so that those that can afford it can afford games after its purchase...


No, it doesn't.

High costing products = less money to spend because you had to save up for the console.

If you think otherwise... I'd suggest you've never actually known too many people who were poor.

Besides, you were talking about the "Middle class".

That IS the middle class.



Kasz216 said:
Ail said:
Kasz216 said:

For the record, in 2007 a Wii cost $1000 dollars in Brazil.  (American dollars.)  1800 for the PS3.

With games ranging between $200-$300

Per Capita Income of Brazil?

$5,052.

So... not really that affordable for the middle class.  Though I was off on the price.  It's more like half a months salary.  Which is still, you know ridiculious.  Guess the Brazilian people I know are a bit poorer then average.  Not that surprisng considering their gini coefficent.

Of course that's probably why they import from the US so much, but you can't quite drive up the US every time you wanna pick up a new game.

Like I said the high price of the console actually makes it so that those that can afford it can afford games after its purchase...


No, it doesn't.

High costing products = less money to spend because you had to save up for the console.

If you think otherwise... I'd suggest you've never actually known too many people who were poor.

Besides, you were talking about the "Middle class".

That IS the middle class.

I'm pretty sure that if you are poor, saving up to purchase a gaming console is the last thing on your mind...

So obviously the owners of console in countries like Brazil are not among the poorest...



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

Ail said:
Kasz216 said:
Ail said:
Kasz216 said:

For the record, in 2007 a Wii cost $1000 dollars in Brazil.  (American dollars.)  1800 for the PS3.

With games ranging between $200-$300

Per Capita Income of Brazil?

$5,052.

So... not really that affordable for the middle class.  Though I was off on the price.  It's more like half a months salary.  Which is still, you know ridiculious.  Guess the Brazilian people I know are a bit poorer then average.  Not that surprisng considering their gini coefficent.

Of course that's probably why they import from the US so much, but you can't quite drive up the US every time you wanna pick up a new game.

Like I said the high price of the console actually makes it so that those that can afford it can afford games after its purchase...


No, it doesn't.

High costing products = less money to spend because you had to save up for the console.

If you think otherwise... I'd suggest you've never actually known too many people who were poor.

Besides, you were talking about the "Middle class".

That IS the middle class.

I'm pretty sure that if you are poor, saving up to purchase a gaming console is the last thing on your mind...

So obviously the owners of console in countries like Brazil are not among the poorest...

So in otherwords...

you don't know many poor people. 

Or really in this case, middle class people but their is a ridiculious 60% tax on imports.

I mean, gaming is a LOT of peoples main hobby.  You don't think people are willing to save up for their main hobby?


I mean,  your europeon ticket prices may not be the same there, but you should see what people here spend on season tickets and the like, or the kind of nice cars a lot of people have that live in crappy apartments.

People are willing to save up for stuff, as long as they know once they've reached that entry cost, they won't have to pay much more.