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Forums - General Discussion - UK agrees to skilled migration cap.

CrazyHorse on 25 November 2010
Soleron said:
CrazyHorse said:
Soleron said:
CrazyHorse said:

 subsidising home students.


Not any more lol! $9000 in tuition fees is enough to fully fund a course.

Arrghhh, I was working in a building next to the protests at university yesterday, they even tried to storm it! Not sure what they hoped to achieve by occupying a building already full of university students!!

The problem with the rise in fees is that not all courses will be charging the same (depending on the level of cuts they face) and those which do need to charge the maximum may find their numbers significantly reduced because of that so I suspect a lot of the funding short fall may not be fully made up (but this is a whole other topic!!).

The courses which cost more to run (sciences) are also exactly the ones the government claims we need more of. So expect applicants for that to drop off steeper than arts.

The worst part, I feel, is that more prestigious universities will be restricted to those who are rich (or, bizarrely, the very poor who benefit from grants) because they will feel they can charge more. The middle class (which I will define as ~$35k-$60k household earnings) will be stuck.

For example I am at Cambridge, but if they raised it to £9000 I don't think my family could afford for me to go. And I'm certain Cambridge will charge the maximum based on their public statements about this.

I'm still not 100% sure on what the situation will be for science/maths/engineering course yet. Funding for those courses will not be cut to the same degree as the humanities courses and so there is a chance fees will not be as high for science degrees (which I really hope will be the case otherwise we are shooting ourselves in the foot in the long term).

I share your concerns on your second point.



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CrazyHorse on 25 November 2010
SamuelRSmith said:
CrazyHorse said:
Soleron said:
CrazyHorse said:

 subsidising home students.


Not any more lol! $9000 in tuition fees is enough to fully fund a course.

Arrghhh, I was working in a building next to the protests at university yesterday, they even tried to storm it! Not sure what they hoped to achieve by occupying a building already full of university students!!

The problem with the rise in fees is that not all courses will be charging the same (depending on the level of cuts they face) and those which do need to charge the maximum may find their numbers significantly reduced because of that so I suspect a lot of the funding short fall may not be fully made up (but this is a whole other topic!!).


The price of the course will reflect the demand. If the price falls below costs, then it will be inefficient for those courses to remain running.

Excatly, which is where the lack of international students will really hurt universities as some courses, departments and even whole universities may shut down as they will not be able to make up the funding shortfall. Even those courses able to continue will face a reduction in both financial input and academic output by a reduction in international students (especially in the area of postgraduate studies). Of course it is more complicated than that and there and there are a number of wide ranging, associated issues but as I said, that is a whole other (and very large) topic!



SamuelRSmith on 25 November 2010
CrazyHorse said:
SamuelRSmith said:
CrazyHorse said:
Soleron said:
CrazyHorse said:

 subsidising home students.


Not any more lol! $9000 in tuition fees is enough to fully fund a course.

Arrghhh, I was working in a building next to the protests at university yesterday, they even tried to storm it! Not sure what they hoped to achieve by occupying a building already full of university students!!

The problem with the rise in fees is that not all courses will be charging the same (depending on the level of cuts they face) and those which do need to charge the maximum may find their numbers significantly reduced because of that so I suspect a lot of the funding short fall may not be fully made up (but this is a whole other topic!!).


The price of the course will reflect the demand. If the price falls below costs, then it will be inefficient for those courses to remain running.

Excatly, which is where the lack of international students will really hurt universities as some courses, departments and even whole universities may shut down as they will not be able to make up the funding shortfall. Even those courses able to continue will face a reduction in both financial input and academic output by a reduction in international students (especially in the area of postgraduate studies). Of course it is more complicated than that and there and there are a number of wide ranging, associated issues but as I said, that is a whole other (and very large) topic!


I wasn't aware that international students received the subsidized rate, to start with.

EDIT:

Tuition fees in the U.K. vary from institution to institution, and also from region to region, but the cost for an overseas undergraduate at St. Andrews for the academic year 2009-10 would be about $19,000.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-college-students-explore-uk-options-2010-11-25



CrazyHorse on 25 November 2010
SamuelRSmith said:
CrazyHorse said:
SamuelRSmith said:


The price of the course will reflect the demand. If the price falls below costs, then it will be inefficient for those courses to remain running.

Excatly, which is where the lack of international students will really hurt universities as some courses, departments and even whole universities may shut down as they will not be able to make up the funding shortfall. Even those courses able to continue will face a reduction in both financial input and academic output by a reduction in international students (especially in the area of postgraduate studies). Of course it is more complicated than that and there and there are a number of wide ranging, associated issues but as I said, that is a whole other (and very large) topic!


I wasn't aware that international students received the subsidized rate, to start with.

EDIT:

Tuition fees in the U.K. vary from institution to institution, and also from region to region, but the cost for an overseas undergraduate at St. Andrews for the academic year 2009-10 would be about $19,000.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-college-students-explore-uk-options-2010-11-25

Sorry, i think there's been a confusion over the point I was trying to make. To try and clarify, there are two issues here. The first is that, as you mention, certain courses may not be able to fund themselves as the teaching budget is slashed and student numbers potentially drop due to higher fees. This reduced income is then compounded by a reduction in the number of international students who pay significantly higher fees than home students thus providing a double blow to a university's income (and harming its research output) potentially leading to the closure of certain departments or even whole universities.



Soleron on 26 November 2010
SamuelRSmith said:
...


This is something that, simply, I don't understand. My family isn't paying a penny towards my tuition fees, and they wouldn't do if they rose to £9,000. No matter what the tuition fees are, my family is no better or worse off. All of the debt is on my head (through Student Finance).

There is no way a career as a scientist would be able to pay back £36000 (for 4 years) plus PhD debts given that post-PhD work still pays terribly until you get to Professor level many years later than that (if you ever do, positions are rare). If I was a doctor/lawyer/accountant then, sure, I'd be able to take on that debt.

At the very least the government are making it unaffordable to have a career in research.

Rising tuition fees won't stop anyone from going to University if they take on the debt, themselves. Whether or not it's worthwhile taking on the debt is all dependant on what sort of career you are likely to get when you leave. As such, only the courses that result in high-paying jobs will reach the maximum level of tuition fees, and others will be offered at lower fees, or the course will be ended. It's just simple economics through the price mechanism.

I don't believe you or your parents' ability for you to pay should affect the university you can go to. The sole determinant should be academic suitability (grades, work experience etc.).

I do agree that the courses that don't prepare one for jobs well should be cut, but that can be done directly (by stopping funding) rather than by raising fees for everyone to the same effect.





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numonex on 29 November 2010

A blanket restriction on immigration and cap on how many immigrants come to the UK needs to be pushed by the government. The immigrants regardless of their skilled or unskilled background could be terrorists, criminals and fugitives. 

If they are immigrants they need to be screened and come with documentation that can be checked. Immigrants taking jobs away from local workers is never a good political move. 

Strong borders and secure passports are needed to crackdown on crime and illegal immigrants. Kick out the illegal immigrants, send them back or hold them in detention camps. 

What if illegal immigrants are terrorists or drug dealers or Roma gypsies? They are illegal and need to be kicked out of the country. 

Immigrants with papers, documentation and pay money to government to secure visa are welcome. 



numonex on 29 November 2010
CrazyHorse said:
Soleron said:
CrazyHorse said:
Soleron said:
CrazyHorse said:

 subsidising home students.


Not any more lol! $9000 in tuition fees is enough to fully fund a course.

Arrghhh, I was working in a building next to the protests at university yesterday, they even tried to storm it! Not sure what they hoped to achieve by occupying a building already full of university students!!

The problem with the rise in fees is that not all courses will be charging the same (depending on the level of cuts they face) and those which do need to charge the maximum may find their numbers significantly reduced because of that so I suspect a lot of the funding short fall may not be fully made up (but this is a whole other topic!!).

The courses which cost more to run (sciences) are also exactly the ones the government claims we need more of. So expect applicants for that to drop off steeper than arts.

The worst part, I feel, is that more prestigious universities will be restricted to those who are rich (or, bizarrely, the very poor who benefit from grants) because they will feel they can charge more. The middle class (which I will define as ~$35k-$60k household earnings) will be stuck.

For example I am at Cambridge, but if they raised it to £9000 I don't think my family could afford for me to go. And I'm certain Cambridge will charge the maximum based on their public statements about this.

I'm still not 100% sure on what the situation will be for science/maths/engineering course yet. Funding for those courses will not be cut to the same degree as the humanities courses and so there is a chance fees will not be as high for science degrees (which I really hope will be the case otherwise we are shooting ourselves in the foot in the long term).

I share your concerns on your second point.

Humanities degrees = Liberal Arts/Arts degree holders are the ones who struggle to find jobs because too many graduates, graduate with easy Arts/Liberal Arts Mickey Mouse degrees.  Public service sector is bloated and  many people hold Arts degrees work in government bureaucracies. 

Medicine/Dentistry/Engineering/Maths/Science degrees should  only discriminate on people's academic abilities on whether they can complete the degrees. Valuable college degrees should not be limited to a person's socio-economic background