I put damage in both cons and pros. Pro because it's a new addition like you mentioned, con because compeditor simulation racers have a much more robust damage modelling system (GRID, Forza).

As for your Lambo example: Addition of Lambo's is a Pro, still no porsche is a con. However the addition of Lambo is a bigger pro then no cons, thats why it has it's own bullet and the no Porsche is under the design flaws bullet.

Yes, Digital downlods, I'll use the Polyphony figure.

Still GT5P sales are lower then GT4P sales despite have 3 times as long to sell.

And are you making a userbase arguement? Do you really want me to put down lifetime expected 70 million PS3's compared to the better selling PS1's and PS2's as an arguement?

People argue that userbase is meaningless (me included), GT3 was released on the PS2 when it was a fresh console, and it was the best selling GT game by far. So please don't use that very same userbase arguement in the opposite direction to justify the poorer sales of GT5P in Japan.

I mean look at Halo, Halo 3 sales are basically equal to Halo Reach sales despite the smaller fanbase. Even in GT, GT1 and GT3 are bigger then GT2 and GT4 respectivly, how does this follow the userbase arguement when there were more PS1's and PS2's at the time GT2 and GT4 were released?

Also please watch your language man, some of your posts are quite aweful.

Many of the points are mine as this thread is still fresh, but I hope for that to change in a day or two.

I also said many of these points are likely to cause little to no effect at all in total sales. This is a subjective list, merely designed to point out the reasons for the hype and concerns for the game.

Also thank you for at least stating that you agree with all the pros.

1. I agree, but some people may have moved on. A lot or a little, some people may have moved on.

2. Speculations, and it won't get the marketing say Halo got (it's release date was known months prior, and it was marketed extensivly)

3. I agree, but it's still a valid point. FPS's have the spotlight this generation, where in the PS2 era it was sandbox/racing, and before that it was Platformer, RPG, racing.

4. Hm... what's your take on damage modeling?

5. This one I debated putting on. I only wanted to show compeditor Sims have more. I wanted 1 pro to be most cars, 1 con to be less tracks then Forza, but I'm not sure how good this point is. Maybe I should add it to another larger point.

6. Still a valid con, but you don't have to agree, this is just a list of potential pros/cons.

Good post btw

Might not have Porsche, but theres still RUF. Its a half-assed way of getting Porsche, but for the average player it will still get the job done.

Yeah your OP is nice too....you've said things in a way so that people won't get riled up for no reason. Your trying to have a proper discussion, which is good!!

1. Yeah some may have...but who knows how big they are. And also GT5 may bring in new people to the franchise...could the people leaving and people coming in be "balanced"....its a hard thing to say right now, but I guess its a valid potential con you have there.

2. True it won't get Halo marketing.....but this last minute "delay" and then tons of GT5 release date rumor's that are on loads of gaming media websites has led to a massive exposure of GT5....people who may not know about it are seeing it in headlines all over the place. Who knows, maybe the delay raised awareness. Now its up to SONY to market it effectively.

3. Yup FPS's have had the spotlight. But these established franchises are still doing fine....GT is one of them.

4. I don't think having just cosmetic damage is going to be a major con or a deal breaker. PRevious GT games also had that con....but times are changing, some gamers may not like that.

5. True it is less than forza...and I would prefer to have more tracks than cars BUT its still 70....which is a lot. Its like comparing 2 boys, one who got 99/100....the other who got 95/100. Ok one did better....but the other one has done extremely well too.

6. It is a valid con in Japan.

But for the rest of the world I can't see GT5:P sales being anything other than a "pro"....its shipped around 5 Million worldwide....a massive figure for a demo.

_________-

Another "pro" I would add in is that last generation Gran Turismo 3 was the best selling exclusive title on a console........so we can see the brand has very big power and a lot of it may be transferred to this gen.

_________

If you lack the ability to understand the differance between a game launching at 12 million user base to one hitting on 1.6 then so be it.

14.0 million PS2s - 790k Prologue sold.
1.6 million PS3 -  740k prologues sold.

Maybe one of you can interpret those numbers and explain them to him in a better way that he might understand.

I lack the patience and in no way feel like suffering him any more.

Userbase is meaningless, but if you really want I can also write that down as a con for why GT5 will sell less then GT1-4. Less PS3's mean less sales right? Did GT3 not outsell GT4 when less PS2's were around? Did GT1 not do the same against GT2? Did MGS4 sell just as well as MGS3? Did GoW3 sell as well as GoW 2? Userbase only matters to purely casual games like Mario Kart (which sold 1/3rd as many units as there are consoles out there on the N64, GCN, and Wii).

You can't apply this logic only to one aspect (GT5P in Japan) and not to others (GT5 total sales), thats just foolish.

You really like to press your opinion as facts don't you?

F1 2010 will hurt GT5 in Europe.

My PS3 owning friend is a racing nut and loves GT5.

He also loves F1 and goes to a lot of the races.

F1 2010 is currently sucking up all his time. He adores the game and plays it relentlessly.

I was stunned when he announced last week that he wasnt going to preorder GT5 as he reckons F1 2010 will keep him happy for 6 months at least.

I appreciate that this is one man and that to stretch it to a whole continent is a bit much.

None the less the Codemasters game launched on time.

Looks fantastic.

Plays really well as has sold a bucket load.