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Forums - Gaming Discussion - It's 4 years later why are there still issues with motion controls?

Yakuzaice on 19 September 2010
MaxwellGT2000 said:
leatherhat said:

Because motion control games are a joke. The most precise motion controller will still be far less so than a regular gamepad. Like the killzone example you used, the mere act of making a gesture can screw your aim up, as opposed to a more simple and intuitive button press that lets you keep full control.


Or you could have a sub controller that has motion sensors in it and it work perfectly and have the best controls that isn't a Mouse and Keyboard and even then with the sub controller you have advantages to the keyboard mostly being analog control lol

What does the nunchuck motion control really add that is useful?  It can't do very precise things, so it comes down to gestures.  Pressing a button will always be easier than moving your arm for doing a specific action.  I mean it's great if you like miming tossing a grenade, but if we're talking about what will be fastest and most accurate, a button will usually win out.  Different strokes for different folks.

Also it is possible to have analog controls, buttons, keys, and a mouse at the same time.  The glories of PC gaming lol.



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leatherhat on 19 September 2010
MaxwellGT2000 said:
Rainbird said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
Rainbird said:

#1 Agreed.

#2 Regarding Killzone 3, the developers said that anything that can done with a gesture can be done with a button as well, so the competetive types won't have to worry about that. It is a shame that you have to choose between more accurate motion controls and actual 3D movement though.

#3 To be expected, for now at least.

Something I didn't want to mention at each point because it applies to all three essentially, is that this is the first generation of motion controllers we're seeing, so lessons about SKUs and reliability are more likely to be used in later generations as opposed to this one. And with better hardware in the coming generations, #2 will have a better chance of being covered as well. Everyone is still learning after all.

My overall point is that these issues that are happening with motion controllers designed after the Wii hit and they are still having the same issues that were major complaints 4 years ago, so in 4 years you're saying they couldn't figure out a way to improve on Nintendos design that was laid out in front of them?

Reliability is going to take more than four years to deal with. The tech has to be perfect if it isn't ever to be thrown off, and it's gonna take a little while for that to happen. And the nunchuck controls are hard to gauge. On the Wii, the sensors are pretty low tier, and so it's limited what you can do with them (again, wait for the next generation).

On the PS3 with the NavCon, Sony obviously opted to allow for a lower price of entry for consumers by making the NavCon the same as the right side of the Dualshock, thus allowing people to use the DS3 instead of the NavCon. But waving the DS3 around with one hand probably isn't a very good option for controls, and so there are no sensors in the NavCon. Again, wait for the next generation, where I'm guessing Sony will be launching with something akin to the Move with every PS3.

And Kinect is all about using your body as the controller, putting a controller in the package would probably have put Microsoft and the package at large in a much weaker position, both PR wise and purely word of mouth as well. But once again, wait for the next generation, if Microsoft launches with a Kinect device in the package, the controller they'll also be using is probably much better to utilize alongside Kinect than their current controller is.

So, back to the conclusion then, it's going to take more than four years/one generation to deal with some of these things, end of story.


Uh obviously not when there is a competing product that retails for 20 dollars and they added motion sensors, I'd rather Sony tether the Nav to the Move and add a Wii Motion Plus like gyro, cause that wireless function of the Nav is pretty useless and its driving up the price of the product a lot.

With the Kinect specifically the design has been around for AGES the camera limits what you can do and that's been a problem since the very beginning and so they should have been thinking of ways to get around that, I could think of a few off the top of my head, it just seems backwards to develop a product that has a limitation that has plagued the design since the start, simply design a way around it.

@leatherhat

So what you're telling me is that you really don't know anything about the subject and you're just in my thread talking about something you have no credibility with, great, your opinion has added SO much, thanks


 I don't agree with you so clearly my opinion is ill-informed and meaningless. Thanks for the casual dismissal instead of any attempt to prove me wrong. 

 



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almcchesney on 19 September 2010
Rainbird said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
Rainbird said:

Reliability is going to take more than four years to deal with. The tech has to be perfect if it isn't ever to be thrown off, and it's gonna take a little while for that to happen. And the nunchuck controls are hard to gauge. On the Wii, the sensors are pretty low tier, and so it's limited what you can do with them (again, wait for the next generation).

On the PS3 with the NavCon, Sony obviously opted to allow for a lower price of entry for consumers by making the NavCon the same as the right side of the Dualshock, thus allowing people to use the DS3 instead of the NavCon. But waving the DS3 around with one hand probably isn't a very good option for controls, and so there are no sensors in the NavCon. Again, wait for the next generation, where I'm guessing Sony will be launching with something akin to the Move with every PS3.

And Kinect is all about using your body as the controller, putting a controller in the package would probably have put Microsoft and the package at large in a much weaker position, both PR wise and purely word of mouth as well. But once again, wait for the next generation, if Microsoft launches with a Kinect device in the package, the controller they'll also be using is probably much better to utilize alongside Kinect than their current controller is.

So, back to the conclusion then, it's going to take more than four years/one generation to deal with some of these things, end of story.

Uh obviously not when there is a competing product that retails for 20 dollars and they added motion sensors, I'd rather Sony tether the Nav to the Move and add a Wii Motion Plus like gyro, cause that wireless function of the Nav is pretty useless and its driving up the price of the product a lot.

With the Kinect specifically the design has been around for AGES the camera limits what you can do and that's been a problem since the very beginning and so they should have been thinking of ways to get around that, I could think of a few off the top of my head, it just seems backwards to develop a product that has a limitation that has plagued the design since the start, simply design a way around it.

Bolded: You know what the price of entry on the NavCon functionality is? Nothing. Because you can use the DS3 your PS3 got out of the box. That's how Sony opted for a lower price of entry. And don't start telling me how the DS3 is totally useless at it, because it isn't, I've used it, and it works well. Not as well as the NavCon I'm guessing (I haven't used it), but I have zero issues using the DS3. And if they used your solution, they would add further to the cost of entry for buying into Move, which is one of the last things they need right now. So your solution would mean that less full Move sets (with both Move and NavCon) would be bought, and with it, less support from developers.

As this is a peripheral and not the primary controller, I think Sony have done the right thing. Expect a more fleshed out controller next generation.

Italic: How would you design your way around that then? I'm not saying it isn't doable, but how would you do it without compromising the promise of controller free gaming (which is basically the main selling point) and without adding further costs to an already expensive product? Not to mention if you add a peripheral, you no longer have all the components needed for all supported multiplayer settings out of the box.

Again, expect a controller next generation out of the box that will work better alongside Kinect than the current one.


agree completely with rainbird, the system that they have set up now works, ive held a dualshock while letting my gf use the navi and it works it was comftorble and no complaints, like rainbird said how would adding a stupid gyro help any with the navi, you got buttons, they are quicker and flicking your left hand would be a nussance.

i have to say a couple of things, the reliability issue in the op wasnt because the controllers, the kinects was a bug in the software and in the golf game he just missed, it is in 3d space so you arent limited to just one linear motion you know...

motion conrtols arent for everyone and if you prefer the wii to the ps move more power to ya, play CoD:R and i will play my KZ3



SaviorX on 19 September 2010

For the past 4 years, only interns have been working on motion control.

First-string teams are actually using it now. It will take several more years to reach balance. Motion controls have been niche until last E3.

Where have you been when this was happening Maxwell?

:P



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MaxwellGT2000 on 19 September 2010
Yakuzaice said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
leatherhat said:

Because motion control games are a joke. The most precise motion controller will still be far less so than a regular gamepad. Like the killzone example you used, the mere act of making a gesture can screw your aim up, as opposed to a more simple and intuitive button press that lets you keep full control.


Or you could have a sub controller that has motion sensors in it and it work perfectly and have the best controls that isn't a Mouse and Keyboard and even then with the sub controller you have advantages to the keyboard mostly being analog control lol

What does the nunchuck motion control really add that is useful?  It can't do very precise things, so it comes down to gestures.  Pressing a button will always be easier than moving your arm for doing a specific action.  I mean it's great if you like miming tossing a grenade, but if we're talking about what will be fastest and most accurate, a button will usually win out.  Different strokes for different folks.

Also it is possible to have analog controls, buttons, keys, and a mouse at the same time.  The glories of PC gaming lol.


I really can't find analog controllers that are one handed for the PC they're kind of a niche product since most people just use wasd for movement, for convince and standard with the platform the Wii remote nunchuck provides pointer controls and analog movement, which is the advantage I'm really talking about.  

As for the gestures I find it a bit more intuitive than having a dedicated and rarely used reload button when that could be used for various other things, reloading takes no reflex time, and I can't tell you how many times switching between various 360 FPS games where I hit reload right in the middle of a fight when I wanted melee, a motion just seems natural to me and you can't mistake that for another button lol



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

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MaxwellGT2000 on 20 September 2010
Rainbird said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
Rainbird said:

Reliability is going to take more than four years to deal with. The tech has to be perfect if it isn't ever to be thrown off, and it's gonna take a little while for that to happen. And the nunchuck controls are hard to gauge. On the Wii, the sensors are pretty low tier, and so it's limited what you can do with them (again, wait for the next generation).

On the PS3 with the NavCon, Sony obviously opted to allow for a lower price of entry for consumers by making the NavCon the same as the right side of the Dualshock, thus allowing people to use the DS3 instead of the NavCon. But waving the DS3 around with one hand probably isn't a very good option for controls, and so there are no sensors in the NavCon. Again, wait for the next generation, where I'm guessing Sony will be launching with something akin to the Move with every PS3.

And Kinect is all about using your body as the controller, putting a controller in the package would probably have put Microsoft and the package at large in a much weaker position, both PR wise and purely word of mouth as well. But once again, wait for the next generation, if Microsoft launches with a Kinect device in the package, the controller they'll also be using is probably much better to utilize alongside Kinect than their current controller is.

So, back to the conclusion then, it's going to take more than four years/one generation to deal with some of these things, end of story.

Uh obviously not when there is a competing product that retails for 20 dollars and they added motion sensors, I'd rather Sony tether the Nav to the Move and add a Wii Motion Plus like gyro, cause that wireless function of the Nav is pretty useless and its driving up the price of the product a lot.

With the Kinect specifically the design has been around for AGES the camera limits what you can do and that's been a problem since the very beginning and so they should have been thinking of ways to get around that, I could think of a few off the top of my head, it just seems backwards to develop a product that has a limitation that has plagued the design since the start, simply design a way around it.

Bolded: You know what the price of entry on the NavCon functionality is? Nothing. Because you can use the DS3 your PS3 got out of the box. That's how Sony opted for a lower price of entry. And don't start telling me how the DS3 is totally useless at it, because it isn't, I've used it, and it works well. Not as well as the NavCon I'm guessing (I haven't used it), but I have zero issues using the DS3. And if they used your solution, they would add further to the cost of entry for buying into Move, which is one of the last things they need right now. So your solution would mean that less full Move sets (with both Move and NavCon) would be bought, and with it, less support from developers.

As this is a peripheral and not the primary controller, I think Sony have done the right thing. Expect a more fleshed out controller next generation.

Italic: How would you design your way around that then? I'm not saying it isn't doable, but how would you do it without compromising the promise of controller free gaming (which is basically the main selling point) and without adding further costs to an already expensive product? Not to mention if you add a peripheral, you no longer have all the components needed for all supported multiplayer settings out of the box.

Again, expect a controller next generation out of the box that will work better alongside Kinect than the current one.


You've got a fatal flaw in that statement, it's already costing people 100 dollars minimum to just get Move support, thats a big initial hump when you want the support to be wide spread, you're gonna need to invest in a 50 dollar camera and a 50 dollar controller to start things off, thankfully they have a game with the bundle, only the people that bought PS Eye back when it wasn't supported (people like me) are screwed out of a game.

Personally I can go without the Nav controller for now simply because I have my DS3 equipped with actual triggers, otherwise I'd be so irritated trying to use it as a Nav replacement, even then it's unbalanced and annoying to hold a whole controller in one hand and its not even ergonomically designed for that kind of use, so I end up having to rest the controller on my leg... even then the DS3 and sixaxis has a gyro games could use for nunchuck like motion... honestly its just a missed opportunity 



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

megaman79 on 20 September 2010

Its difficult to program brand new control mechanics into a game, hence third parties hate Nintendo for making life so difficult for them.



“When we make some new announcement and if there is no positive initial reaction from the market, I try to think of it as a good sign because that can be interpreted as people reacting to something groundbreaking. ...if the employees were always minding themselves to do whatever the market is requiring at any moment, and if they were always focusing on something we can sell right now for the short term, it would be very limiting. We are trying to think outside the box.” - Satoru Iwata - This is why corporate multinationals will never truly understand, or risk doing, what Nintendo does.

Rainbird on 20 September 2010
MaxwellGT2000 said:
Rainbird said:

Bolded: You know what the price of entry on the NavCon functionality is? Nothing. Because you can use the DS3 your PS3 got out of the box. That's how Sony opted for a lower price of entry. And don't start telling me how the DS3 is totally useless at it, because it isn't, I've used it, and it works well. Not as well as the NavCon I'm guessing (I haven't used it), but I have zero issues using the DS3. And if they used your solution, they would add further to the cost of entry for buying into Move, which is one of the last things they need right now. So your solution would mean that less full Move sets (with both Move and NavCon) would be bought, and with it, less support from developers.

As this is a peripheral and not the primary controller, I think Sony have done the right thing. Expect a more fleshed out controller next generation.

Italic: How would you design your way around that then? I'm not saying it isn't doable, but how would you do it without compromising the promise of controller free gaming (which is basically the main selling point) and without adding further costs to an already expensive product? Not to mention if you add a peripheral, you no longer have all the components needed for all supported multiplayer settings out of the box.

Again, expect a controller next generation out of the box that will work better alongside Kinect than the current one.

You've got a fatal flaw in that statement, it's already costing people 100 dollars minimum to just get Move support, thats a big initial hump when you want the support to be wide spread, you're gonna need to invest in a 50 dollar camera and a 50 dollar controller to start things off, thankfully they have a game with the bundle, only the people that bought PS Eye back when it wasn't supported (people like me) are screwed out of a game.

Personally I can go without the Nav controller for now simply because I have my DS3 equipped with actual triggers, otherwise I'd be so irritated trying to use it as a Nav replacement, even then it's unbalanced and annoying to hold a whole controller in one hand and its not even ergonomically designed for that kind of use, so I end up having to rest the controller on my leg... even then the DS3 and sixaxis has a gyro games could use for nunchuck like motion... honestly its just a missed opportunity 

I don't see that fatal flaw in my statement, as I have said nothing on what the current situation is, merely that your suggestion would make it harder for the Move to create and grow its userbase and thus make support from developers less likely compared to the current situation.

No matter what the hurdle is now, Sony is offering a very accurate motion controller, which seems to be getting good support, and if it has good games, then people will buy it. I doubt they would have been doing as well, not just in general but up against Kinect too, if they had been any more expensive. And not only have they built their solution around being usable with their old controller, they've built it to use their existing camera as well. I think it's awesome, because now I'm finally getting some good use for that camera (I bought mine for LBP back when it released), and I have very few peripherals that I actually need to get to enjoy the experience.

Honestly I think Sony have struck a good balance between features and costs with the Move, and I think they'll be doing a controller with more "features" next generation.

So, what about all the other points I made?



MaxwellGT2000 on 20 September 2010
Rainbird said:
MaxwellGT2000 said:
Rainbird said:

Bolded: You know what the price of entry on the NavCon functionality is? Nothing. Because you can use the DS3 your PS3 got out of the box. That's how Sony opted for a lower price of entry. And don't start telling me how the DS3 is totally useless at it, because it isn't, I've used it, and it works well. Not as well as the NavCon I'm guessing (I haven't used it), but I have zero issues using the DS3. And if they used your solution, they would add further to the cost of entry for buying into Move, which is one of the last things they need right now. So your solution would mean that less full Move sets (with both Move and NavCon) would be bought, and with it, less support from developers.

As this is a peripheral and not the primary controller, I think Sony have done the right thing. Expect a more fleshed out controller next generation.

Italic: How would you design your way around that then? I'm not saying it isn't doable, but how would you do it without compromising the promise of controller free gaming (which is basically the main selling point) and without adding further costs to an already expensive product? Not to mention if you add a peripheral, you no longer have all the components needed for all supported multiplayer settings out of the box.

Again, expect a controller next generation out of the box that will work better alongside Kinect than the current one.

You've got a fatal flaw in that statement, it's already costing people 100 dollars minimum to just get Move support, thats a big initial hump when you want the support to be wide spread, you're gonna need to invest in a 50 dollar camera and a 50 dollar controller to start things off, thankfully they have a game with the bundle, only the people that bought PS Eye back when it wasn't supported (people like me) are screwed out of a game.

Personally I can go without the Nav controller for now simply because I have my DS3 equipped with actual triggers, otherwise I'd be so irritated trying to use it as a Nav replacement, even then it's unbalanced and annoying to hold a whole controller in one hand and its not even ergonomically designed for that kind of use, so I end up having to rest the controller on my leg... even then the DS3 and sixaxis has a gyro games could use for nunchuck like motion... honestly its just a missed opportunity 

I don't see that fatal flaw in my statement, as I have said nothing on what the current situation is, merely that your suggestion would make it harder for the Move to create and grow its userbase and thus make support from developers less likely compared to the current situation.

No matter what the hurdle is now, Sony is offering a very accurate motion controller, which seems to be getting good support, and if it has good games, then people will buy it. I doubt they would have been doing as well, not just in general but up against Kinect too, if they had been any more expensive. And not only have they built their solution around being usable with their old controller, they've built it to use their existing camera as well. I think it's awesome, because now I'm finally getting some good use for that camera (I bought mine for LBP back when it released), and I have very few peripherals that I actually need to get to enjoy the experience.

Honestly I think Sony have struck a good balance between features and costs with the Move, and I think they'll be doing a controller with more "features" next generation.

So, what about all the other points I made?


I really don't have any problems with your statements I just see the Navigation controller as a step backwards and it is, 30 dollars, 10 more than a nunchuck, no motion sensing despite all default Sony controllers at least have a gyro which is all you need for something like a reload motion, but to not support that at all I don't see a lot of reason for that.  

I find the Move as a good set up, it's building off an excellent existing setup, but everyone is fighting over the title of "best" lately and it's hard to say that when you don't address issues that are easily fixable and gamers/reviewers have been vocal about since the start.  I don't like shelling out more money (even though I've already done it lol) for a device that is 4 years late to the party and not solving some of the bigger issues and to simply invest in it will be over 100 dollars for 2 players 150, for 2 players using a game that requires 2 moves (to get full experience) each 250, not including the Navs, since like you said you can use a DS3.  I'd gladly shell out the money for a Nav at 30 if it solved the nunchuck problem lol



MaxwellGT2000 - "Does the amount of times you beat it count towards how hardcore you are?"

Wii Friend Code - 5882 9717 7391 0918 (PM me if you add me), PSN - MaxwellGT2000, XBL - BlkKniteCecil, MaxwellGT2000

megaman79 on 20 September 2010

@MaxwellGT2000, I have a feeling Sony thought they could trick the public into believing that the nav.mote would have motion control also.



“When we make some new announcement and if there is no positive initial reaction from the market, I try to think of it as a good sign because that can be interpreted as people reacting to something groundbreaking. ...if the employees were always minding themselves to do whatever the market is requiring at any moment, and if they were always focusing on something we can sell right now for the short term, it would be very limiting. We are trying to think outside the box.” - Satoru Iwata - This is why corporate multinationals will never truly understand, or risk doing, what Nintendo does.