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Forums - General Discussion - Are Christians and North American's cowards?

Cowardly? Up to debate. I think this is more an issue of sensitivity and over awareness of the deleterious effects of Western colonization of Africa, Central America, South America, the Middle East, India, and Southeast Asia.

If you take the contrary, where the West says, "Fuck you Pakistan and Angola, you have your independence, take some personal responsibility and stop blaming us for problems 40 years ago!" You will have everlasting enmity between the West and the rest.

By West, I mean North America, significant portions of Central and South America, and Europe.

Honestly, the USA today is making up for the mistakes of Europe. Europe colonized and divided Africa, the Middle East and South East Asia into the countries with the boundaries they have today. Since the USA is the super power, we are the one who gets the blame even if we did not cause the situation.

You want an example of the USA taking the blame for failed European policies? The Brits doing to the Middle East after World War 1 whose ramification are still being felt today. In particular, fostering the zionist movement and encouraging them to resettle in what was known as Palestine at the time. After World War 2, the trickle of Jews to Palestine became a flood until Israel was recognized as an independent state in 1948.

Taking the blame goes with the turf of empire, superpower or whatever term people call the most powerful country of contemporary times. I hold no bitterness, dislike or disgust towards any European country or peoples.

All I ask for as a US citizen is to read your history and judge the actions of my country less harshly when we are helping clean up a mess your ancestors started.

All of this makes me wish for a 21st century Monroe Doctrine.



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Kasz216 said:

I can't really think of a way to say this that won't come off as slightly insulting... but I'd guess it's because we have shit.

The middle east isn't Africa, but it isn't Europe or America either in most cases.

It's easier to let stuff go when you're relativly well off.  When you have shit you can roll stuff off better and then claim moral superiority.   It's all about claiming moral superiority because shit like that is less important to us because we've got playstations, steady food supplies, hardly any domestic terrorism, freedom of expression/voting etc.

I agree, (really have to tread carefully on this topic lol) but it does seem to be that the muslim faith is one of the most consuming and dare I say obsessive.

For a lot of people, it's all they have in life.



 

Galaki said:

@OP, in short

Two wrongs does not make a right.

Your absolutly right, I personaly would never burn someones holy book or poke fun at a religious prophet. But I believe in free speach and freedom of religion as such I think North American's should stand behind those rights. If South Park wants to depict Mohammed then they should do so, if some whack job wants to burn a Quran well I won't stop him.

Also protesting isn't a wrong. I think their should be huge protests every time a large quantity of religious texts are burnt. Bibles and other holy texts are burnt all the time and nobody does anything.

I agree right now with the protests with the ground zero because it is religious bias towards Muslims. A Christian church wants to rebuild and is being stopped so that the Muslim Mosque can be built instead. Why is the Christian church being stopped? Because people are being cowards they want to make muslims feel more at home and less offended while treating the Christian's as second class citizens. I wouldn't mind if the church and Mosque were both being built but the second special treatment is given to one religion over another that deserves a protest.

As for the Quran burning, heck I have met Christians persecuted by Muslims in Africa. I have read stories of Christians being forced at gun point to spit on the Bible and piles of Bibles being burnt by Al-Shabab and the Taliban. So when a mad angry person decides to burn a Quran I don't really think he should be stopped.

 

Now I don't think we should be mean to Muslim's, I don't think we should burn anyones holy book. But the freedom to do so and the freedom of Speech should be protected.

But everyones too scared to speak their mind. Were all thinking it but the second someone says anything they are met with death threats and intimidation.

Plus say the burning went forward on Sept 11th, it would send a strong message to the Muslim world that terrorism will only lead to more hatred and bigotry.

Here in Canada a few newspapers were going to print the danish cartoons but death threats were sent out and all of them retracted the cartoons. Same happened to South Park it seems that nobody can critisize Islam without being targetted.

I think if somebody actually does defy Islam its good somebody should I may not agree with their methods but its good to see someone sticking up for the morals are countries are based on, anyone willing to face death to speak out is amazing.

Example the pastor if he burns those texts will likely be dead in about a year, it takes alot to stick up for our freedoms when facing death.



-JC7

"In God We Trust - In Games We Play " - Joel Reimer

 

Freedom of Speech during wartime is a lot different than peacetime. Currently, the USA is engaged in a war in Afghanistan whose population is majority Muslim. Any speech that screams "FIRE! in a crowded theatre" should not and according to US Supreme Court precedent is not legal during wartime.

Here is what Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. wrote in Schenck v. United States (1919):

The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that the United States Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree. When a nation is at War, many things that might be said in time of Peace are such a hindrance to its effort that their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight, and that no Court could regard them as protected by any constitutional right.

The proposed Koran burning by Pastor Terry Jones of Dove World Outreach in Gainesville, Florida is clearly failing the clear and present danger precedent above. General Petraeus and President Obama among others were right to condemn his proposed Koran burning because it would be used as a major recruiting tool for the Taliban in Afghanistan among angering Muslims worldwide to put US troops and citizens in Muslim countries in clear danger of death.

Free Speech such as this during a wartime period should not be tolerated. Period.

Don't confuse cowardice with prudence. The prudent course of action would be to make the USA more accomodating of those who practice Islam.

If this takes allowing mosques to be built not only 2 blocks from Ground Zero but in redneck towns in Iowa and Pennsyltucky, then so be it.

We need to show our enemies our way is better than theirs, we will not punish them unduly after they lay down their arms, and we will embrace them if they so choose to live in our country or try to make their country like ours.

America was not built on exclusion.



Joelcool7 said:
Galaki said:

@OP, in short

Two wrongs does not make a right.

Your absolutly right, I personaly would never burn someones holy book or poke fun at a religious prophet. But I believe in free speach and freedom of religion as such I think North American's should stand behind those rights. If South Park wants to depict Mohammed then they should do so, if some whack job wants to burn a Quran well I won't stop him.

Also protesting isn't a wrong. I think their should be huge protests every time a large quantity of religious texts are burnt. Bibles and other holy texts are burnt all the time and nobody does anything.

I agree right now with the protests with the ground zero because it is religious bias towards Muslims. A Christian church wants to rebuild and is being stopped so that the Muslim Mosque can be built instead. Why is the Christian church being stopped? Because people are being cowards they want to make muslims feel more at home and less offended while treating the Christian's as second class citizens. I wouldn't mind if the church and Mosque were both being built but the second special treatment is given to one religion over another that deserves a protest.

As for the Quran burning, heck I have met Christians persecuted by Muslims in Africa. I have read stories of Christians being forced at gun point to spit on the Bible and piles of Bibles being burnt by Al-Shabab and the Taliban. So when a mad angry person decides to burn a Quran I don't really think he should be stopped.

 

Now I don't think we should be mean to Muslim's, I don't think we should burn anyones holy book. But the freedom to do so and the freedom of Speech should be protected.

But everyones too scared to speak their mind. Were all thinking it but the second someone says anything they are met with death threats and intimidation.

Plus say the burning went forward on Sept 11th, it would send a strong message to the Muslim world that terrorism will only lead to more hatred and bigotry.

Here in Canada a few newspapers were going to print the danish cartoons but death threats were sent out and all of them retracted the cartoons. Same happened to South Park it seems that nobody can critisize Islam without being targetted.

I think if somebody actually does defy Islam its good somebody should I may not agree with their methods but its good to see someone sticking up for the morals are countries are based on, anyone willing to face death to speak out is amazing.

Example the pastor if he burns those texts will likely be dead in about a year, it takes alot to stick up for our freedoms when facing death.

First of all not all muslims are terrorists, nor do most muslims support terrorists. So the majority of muslims would simply be insulted, and those who are terrorists will recieve further justification of their hatred for the US and Christians and will probably be able to recruit more people 'cause of it.

Also, about the "cowardly" thing, since when is it "cowardly" to take the high road and be civilised? The only instances I'd call Wsterners cowardly is when they don't speak up about things like muslim men beating their wives, or muslim women refusing to not wear their burkhas in inappropriate situations. I certainly see nothing brave about some nut jobs who want to burn the Qu'ran (at least the cartoons were for comedy).



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Christians or people in the Western World are content enough with their lives. Plus they have had and still have a certain dominance and superiority over other countries and religions.

Hindus and Buddhists are probably doing fine in mostly India and China

The Jews in Israel have the trouble of having picked the wrong location

And the Islamic world is divided, poor and has more than enough troubles

 

 



Cultural differences explain quite a bit. Islam seems more serious business than Christianity.

Also, we feel we have to be better so we try not to do things like that, out in the public at least.



@OP

Because tolerance is yours (western world's rather than christians') precious value, so you behave according to this imperative. Muslims don't have such thing, they have own values, among which probably the 'ummah' and everything it implies would be the most valuable. Naturally they behave according to it, drawing a thick bold line between themselves, the ummah, and you, kafirs.



Joelcool7 said:

Being a Canadian and a Christian I am over whelmingly patriotic. I love my country and my God but I've noticed comparing us to the Muslims and the Middle East our religions and nationals are really a bunch of cowards.

Now don't get me wrong I do not believe we should start burning Qur'ans and drawing pictures of Mohammed on the toilet or insulting peoples faiths. But why is it okay for everyone around the world to dump on North America but when we do one thing the whole world freaks out.

Every day in the Muslim world Bibles are burned and desecrated. Christians in North Africa and the Middle East get raped then murdered brutally for their faith. Yet North American's do absolutely nothing , we hear the odd activist go on TV and vocalize their position. But you don't see Christian's in the streets burning Palestinian flags or Somalian flags. You don't see huge crowds of Christians screaming death to Muslims and burning charactures of Mohammed.

Yet a few days ago I saw Muslim protestor burning epogies of Jesus Christ and screaming death to Christians. Now as a Christian I think an eye for an eye is not a good way to do things but you'd think that somebody would stand up and do something.

Think a second really what was that moronic pastor doing? He was yes being very confrontational but he was just going to do something that Muslims do to Christian's every day. I actually saw more footage of Muslims burning Bible's, where are the angry Christian's? Why aren't our governments yelling and getting upset at Saudi Arabia or Palestine for burning Bible's?

You don't see the Pope calling the President of Turkey and asking them to stop muslims from desecrating our holy books. Also it isn't just Christian's what about Afghanistan where thousands of Buddhist holy texts and Buddha statues were destroyed. Nobody said a thing we just sat by and watched it happen.

Now a mosque wants to move into ground Zero. Now constitutionaly they have every write to build one, but a greek church across the street isn't alowed to build. Then rumours swirl around that the politicians want to make peace with hardline muslims and this mosque could help appease them.


WTF why are we appeasing anyone. The Muslim countries never do anything to appease us.

Free speach for example. I was so upset when South Park was going to air an episode with Mohammed and before it aired their were protests and death threats flying around. Finally the south park creators censored the episode. But its perfectly fine for South Park and everyone else to insult Jesus and North America but you insult Islam and your dead.

 

So why doesn't North America grow a back bone. Seriously I don't agree with burning anyones holy book. But if some whack pastor wants to burn one in retaliation for 9/11 or South Park wants to air an episode with Mohammed. Frick sakes they have every right to express their opinions.

Anyone wonder why our countries cower to the Middle East?

Burning the Quran is inflamatory. Quite frankly, it would be a stretch to call someone Christian who would do that. Would Jesus make a spectacle of burning another religion's holy book? Christians are taught to turn the other cheek. "We can do it to them because they did it to us" is the worst policy imaginable. Burning the Bible is wrong, and doesn't make it right to relatiate in kind.

Also a note - saying that "Muslims" burn the Bible is unfair. That's like saying "Christians burn crosses" because the KKK did it. Maybe some of the extremer groups do, however like Jews they descended from Abraham, and many do respect a number of the prophets in the Bible.



Jereel Hunter said:

Burning the Quran is inflamatory. Quite frankly, it would be a stretch to call someone Christian who would do that. Would Jesus make a spectacle of burning another religion's holy book? Christians are taught to turn the other cheek. "We can do it to them because they did it to us" is the worst policy imaginable. Burning the Bible is wrong, and doesn't make it right to relatiate in kind.

I'm not sure about burning Quran, but Christianity did experience period of expansionism in every possible sense of the word coupled with social and financial factors that motivated people on such things commonly known as Crusades in world history.