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Forums - General Discussion - The MYTH of American Islamophobia

FootballFan on 26 August 2010
Kasz216 said:
FootballFan said:
superchunk said:
FootballFan said:

I have a question based on the sensitivity vs responsibility arguement.

Lets say I went to someone's house and killed them then the police shot me down right there on the spot. My parents decided to buy a plot of land next to the other dead guys parents then built a statue (lets imagine they could do that) saying: "In memory of XYZ"

My parents would be perfectly allowed to build whatever they like based upon having these "Amercian freedoms", but in the circumstances, would it be right to specifically next to the other persons house based upon what had previously happened? It would clearly be insensitive when they probably be fine with building it just not in that exact radius.

Is it right to build a Chruch next to a Abortion clinic.....No

Is it right to build a mosque as part of the building....? This debate is going to rage on for years. Tbh I would be suprised if it ever gets fully built. In America thing's take years as it is to build...


Your example does nto make sense as the family of the killer is not the same relation as the other billion Muslims to the terrorist who plotted and performed the 9/11 attacks and the killer's actual tomb is not the same as a new Mosque.

Your example is a logical fallacy.

If you had read the first sentence correctly you would have noticed I was talking about the sensitivity vs responsibility argument. I wanted to know how far these "American Freedoms" will stretch.

I was just curious as to if it would or would not be allowed.

It would be allowed.  No law to stop it. 

Which is largely the point everyone ignores because they want to scream "OMG RACISTS!!!!!1!1!1!"

Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should.

Exactly.



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theprof00 on 26 August 2010
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:
theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:
 

Once again... you are simply not looking at it correctly.

If, radical Christians killed your daughter in an abortion clinic bombing near your work.

How would you feel about an Church being put up right next to said ruins that you have to drive by every day?


The mosque being there will be a sign of america's greatness.

But the greatness that we even protect the rights of people when they use those rights to be giant assholes.

The same as the KKK's right to throwing racist protests is a sign of America's greatness.

I wouldn't do anything about it. I, my family, and my daughter are tragic victims of fate. I wouldn't dare to take revenge by terrorizing the innocent. And I don't deign to think that my actions have any impact on the security of my loved ones or of humanity itself.

Who is "terrorizing the innocent."

If anything this community center is going to "terrorize the innocent" by causing victims and victims families to suffer PTSD attacks.

It's the same reason you wouldn't build a church nearby a burned out abortion clinic.

You wouldn't call these protests terrorizing?

When you see the hate on these people's faces, I'm sure it terrorizes the shit out of the other side, who haven't done anything wrong. They try to control the actions of others through fear. That's the basic definition of the word.

Why haven't they been protesting the mosque that's already right there? 
And let me question you about the ptsd comment.

How do you quantify that into a value? 

Where is the line? How many people do you need to have, and how mentally imbalanced do they need to be? 

If there is one person suffering, does that qualify?

Because of the undefinable nature of your evidence, I find it hard to take into consideration. 

I believe that those people should be allowed to live happy lives, but by your earlier statements comparing one level of violence to another and implying that it wasn't a big deal, they should deal with it. Right?


You do realize your entire arguement in this paragraph has boiled down to "I think the protests are terrorizing... I want everybody to live happily without being terrorized... so let them build this building that will terrorize people."

You're arguement has a HUGE double standard in it.

They haven't been protesting the mosque that's already there because it's

A) Not 15 stories tall.

B) Not going to be visible from ground zero and the most popular access point of ground zero.

No, the size and visibility is just a cover for what it really is. Americans think they have a sway over what happens. They think they are in a direct battle with the muslim religion and that they are warriors for god or whatever other movement they are in.

Look, I'm not trying to start an argument or say that your thoughts are not valid, but I think you would still have something to say if the building was just 4 stories tall and visible from a memorial sculpture.

After 9/11 Americans are scared. They are doing this to reclaim their pride and security. This isn't about some indignity the mosque is creating, this is Americans considering the construction Round 2. That is why the other mosque isn't being protested.



nobodyspecial on 26 August 2010
Mendicate Bias said:

Do we label Germans as being a hateful people because not too long ago they nearly wiped an entire religion off the face of the Earth?

If a man that called himself a radical Christian said that it is Gods will that he kill all the black people in United States, even though no where in his religion does it say to do such a thing, do we still label him a Christian?

A group of people that call themselves Muslim preach and do things that can not be found in the religion, in fact they go against what their religion asks of them. Just because they call themselves Muslim does not make them so. The people responsible for 9/11 are just as likely to blow up a Mosque in Iraq and if given the chance would kill most of the Muslims in the United Sates for being false in their beliefs including the ones building the Mosque in NY. So no building a Mosque near ground zero is not a victory monument, it is simply a place where people can go to pray and learn the true peaceful teachings of their religion.

Of course this is all under the assumption that their building a mosque which they aren't, it is a youth center open to anyone.


Nazis who happened to be German killed around 6 million Jews by 1945 so blaming any Germans now who were under 18 in or born after 1945 is ridiculous. (And even at the time you couldn't blame all Germans since I'm sure not all of them supported the Nazis.) By the way, do you know about WW1's Holocaust? The Islamic Ottoman Empire killed around 4 million Christians and almost wiped out all the Christians in Turkey. Look at all the islamic countries now, how "tolerant" are they? Islam is just like Nazism except unfortunately it's far more prevalent.



mhsillen on 26 August 2010
superchunk said:

Article is self defeating.

1. Even after the total number decreased it was still over 4 times higher than pre2001, shown some increase in at least reported incidents.

2. Of the 3000 people murdered on 9/11, a great number of them were Muslim as well.

3. The 'controversial' Mosque is closer to an existing Mosque than Ground Zero and you can't even see it from Ground Zero.

4. This is raised in US because we are the US and must hold ourselves to higher levels and standards than any other nation, especially those Muslim nations you all like to use for comparison so much.

5. No one says America is a land of intolerance, just that it seems the right-wing is becoming more and more radical, which is scary as that path leads to the same extreamism we denounce daily.

6. Author's name is 'Goldberg' (Jewish).... ok j/k on that one, just thought it was funny, ya know whole Isreali/Jewish issue with Palestinian/Arab/Muslim etc... ok joke has past.


That is such a generalization as to come off as total bullshit.  What you should say is extreme ideologues on the far left and right.   Marginalizing and stereotyping a  group of people like you are doing opens up alot of hate and could lead to a hate crime. I'm mean you don't want to sound hateful do you?



FootballFan on 26 August 2010
nobodyspecial said:
Mendicate Bias said:

Do we label Germans as being a hateful people because not too long ago they nearly wiped an entire religion off the face of the Earth?

If a man that called himself a radical Christian said that it is Gods will that he kill all the black people in United States, even though no where in his religion does it say to do such a thing, do we still label him a Christian?

A group of people that call themselves Muslim preach and do things that can not be found in the religion, in fact they go against what their religion asks of them. Just because they call themselves Muslim does not make them so. The people responsible for 9/11 are just as likely to blow up a Mosque in Iraq and if given the chance would kill most of the Muslims in the United Sates for being false in their beliefs including the ones building the Mosque in NY. So no building a Mosque near ground zero is not a victory monument, it is simply a place where people can go to pray and learn the true peaceful teachings of their religion.

Of course this is all under the assumption that their building a mosque which they aren't, it is a youth center open to anyone.


Nazis who happened to be German killed around 6 million Jews by 1945 so blaming any Germans now who were under 18 in or born after 1945 is ridiculous. (And even at the time you couldn't blame all Germans since I'm sure not all of them supported the Nazis.) By the way, do you know about WW1's Holocaust? The Islamic Ottoman Empire killed around 4 million Christians and almost wiped out all the Christians in Turkey. Look at all the islamic countries now, how "tolerant" are they? Islam is just like Nazism except unfortunately it's far more prevalent.

Huh? You make it sound like all Muslims are terrorists. it is a long way under 1%. Also the Christian wipeout wasn't covered because it was under wraps from everyone else....the Nazis virtually boasted about killing jews disabled blacks gypsies etc etc etc

One thing I don't understand is how any Muslim can be serious about being peaceful and backing Sharia Law. It is vile and completely against freedoms and forgiveness that the Qu'ran teaches. (Ok I haven't read it but whatever)

Also in your video it showed the United against Facisim (UAF) protesting for Sharia law....thats hilarious considering Sharia law isn't best known for treating religions equally



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theprof00 on 26 August 2010
Pharaoh said:

How quickly people forget 9/11.  I'll never forget the whole Muslim world celebrating this on TV and in print media.  It was a badge of honor and rallying cry.  Label me as a "right wing nutjob", you are not building a mosque anywhere around ground zero.  You can argue sensibly that this mosque is open to everyone and its a symbol of peace, its bullshit.  Its going to be spit in the face of America.  Muslims around the world will flock to this mosque to praise at their "greatest accomplishment". 

This kind of reaction is what makes the extremists think we are afraid of them.

"Greatest accomplishment"

We brought the modern world to it's knees. We created the industrial revolution. Our tech and cutting edge products advance humanity further than it has ever gone. Our medical and warfare are bar none the top in the world. Our average citizens live like GODS.

Let them build the mosque. It does not represent a victory for muslims. It represents a safe haven for humanity. 

I know that it is being interpreted as a victory. Americans and extremists alike think that it represents something beyond that. 

But we shouldn't fear that.

We are such a great nation that an indignity like the 9/11 attacks will never be able to stand up to any of our achievements. And while they may celebrate slighting us, we will continue to lead the world in every way.

Constructing a 100m $ mosque on our land is exactly what makes our country the #1 place in the world. Look at the statue of liberty, "give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free." Construction of the mosque will create jobs and it will keep kids off the street. This is the foundation of american principle. 



nobodyspecial on 26 August 2010
Pharaoh said:

How quickly people forget 9/11.  I'll never forget the whole Muslim world celebrating this on TV and in print media.  It was a badge of honor and rallying cry.  Label me as a "right wing nutjob", you are not building a mosque anywhere around ground zero.  You can argue sensibly that this mosque is open to everyone and its a symbol of peace, its bullshit.  Its going to be spit in the face of America.  Muslims around the world will flock to this mosque to praise at their "greatest accomplishment". 


Here in the UK there are events celebrating the 9/11 terrorist attacks and at one of them someone turned up to protest against it and the police arrested him on "suspicion" of carrying a knife. He was later let go without charge as they couldn't find any knives on him or where he had been. (Surprise, surprise.) This sort of thing goes on all the time, the muslims get police protection (even when they're attacking the police!) whereas anyone who doesn't shut up and "tolerate" their violent demonstrations usually gets arrested for whatever charge the police can think of at the time.



FootballFan on 26 August 2010
theprof00 said:
Pharaoh said:

How quickly people forget 9/11.  I'll never forget the whole Muslim world celebrating this on TV and in print media.  It was a badge of honor and rallying cry.  Label me as a "right wing nutjob", you are not building a mosque anywhere around ground zero.  You can argue sensibly that this mosque is open to everyone and its a symbol of peace, its bullshit.  Its going to be spit in the face of America.  Muslims around the world will flock to this mosque to praise at their "greatest accomplishment". 

This kind of reaction is what makes muslims think we are afraid of them.

"Greatest accomplishment"

We brought the modern world to it's knees. We created the industrial revolution. Our tech and cutting edge products advance humanity further than it has ever gone. Our medical and warfare are bar none the top in the world. Our average citizens live like GODS.

Let them build their mosque. We are such a great nation, that they will never rival us. Constructing a 100m $ mosque on our land is exactly what makes our country the #1 place in the world. Look at the statue of liberty, "give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free." Construction of the mosque will create jobs and it will keep kids off the street. This is the foundation of american principle. 

This is an attitude that causes the split between people. It is basically saying that anyone who is a Muslim isn't an American. It also wrongly assumes that Muslims have come in the later (more recent) stages of immigration. America should unite people and not divide people like what your paragraph suggests. It also goes against your last sentence. Surley America was a nation built from nothing and was a melting pot where people united together despite of different races religions and creeds?



theprof00 on 26 August 2010
FootballFan said:
theprof00 said:
Pharaoh said:

How quickly people forget 9/11.  I'll never forget the whole Muslim world celebrating this on TV and in print media.  It was a badge of honor and rallying cry.  Label me as a "right wing nutjob", you are not building a mosque anywhere around ground zero.  You can argue sensibly that this mosque is open to everyone and its a symbol of peace, its bullshit.  Its going to be spit in the face of America.  Muslims around the world will flock to this mosque to praise at their "greatest accomplishment". 

This kind of reaction is what makes muslims think we are afraid of them.

"Greatest accomplishment"

We brought the modern world to it's knees. We created the industrial revolution. Our tech and cutting edge products advance humanity further than it has ever gone. Our medical and warfare are bar none the top in the world. Our average citizens live like GODS.

Let them build their mosque. We are such a great nation, that they will never rival us. Constructing a 100m $ mosque on our land is exactly what makes our country the #1 place in the world. Look at the statue of liberty, "give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free." Construction of the mosque will create jobs and it will keep kids off the street. This is the foundation of american principle. 

This is an attitude that causes the split between people. It is basically saying that anyone who is a Muslim isn't an American. It also wrongly assumes that Muslims have come in the later (more recent) stages of immigration. America should unite people and not divide people like what your paragraph suggests. It also goes against your last sentence. Surley America was a nation built from nothing and was a melting pot where people united together despite of different races religions and creeds?

I was using the term muslim in the way only they seem to understand it, as our enemies. Because all muslims are responsible for what extremist religious nut jobs do.

I'll edit it for clarity.



Pharaoh on 26 August 2010
theprof00 said:
Pharaoh said:

How quickly people forget 9/11.  I'll never forget the whole Muslim world celebrating this on TV and in print media.  It was a badge of honor and rallying cry.  Label me as a "right wing nutjob", you are not building a mosque anywhere around ground zero.  You can argue sensibly that this mosque is open to everyone and its a symbol of peace, its bullshit.  Its going to be spit in the face of America.  Muslims around the world will flock to this mosque to praise at their "greatest accomplishment". 

This kind of reaction is what makes muslims think we are afraid of them.

"Greatest accomplishment"

We brought the modern world to it's knees. We created the industrial revolution. Our tech and cutting edge products advance humanity further than it has ever gone. Our medical and warfare are bar none the top in the world. Our average citizens live like GODS.

Let them build their mosque. We are such a great nation, that they will never rival us. Constructing a 100m $ mosque on our land is exactly what makes our country the #1 place in the world. Look at the statue of liberty, "give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free." Construction of the mosque will create jobs and it will keep kids off the street. This is the foundation of american principle. 

We aren't afraid of them, its the point of not letting them "win".  Everyone knows we could roll through all their countries whenever we wanted, its not about our supremacy.   If they build this, it will be a victory for them.  I remember 9/11 very vividly, I was about to fly out of Newark when it happened.  I don't care if the people building it aren't connected in anyway with the terroists.  Its still spit in the face of every family and every American.



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