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The Ghost of RubangB said:

It was right about 1995 when every game genre got super-easier for a couple reasons.

3-D replacing 2-D: 3-D games are always easier than 2-D games.  You can move in 360 directions instead of 4.  To make up for this, they take out the precision of crazy jumps.  There are jumps in Super Mario Bros. 1 that are harder than any 3-D game's jumps.  Same goes for shooters.  Games like Halo replaced games like Contra and Metal Slug (although the first Doom and Quake games were hard as hell).

Cutscenes changing the focus to story: now games have stories with endings.  So they want you to finish the whole game and get to the end, so you can see the cliffhanger ending, so you want to buy the sequel to finish the story.  Now it's in their best interest to make the game easy enough to beat.  Back in the day games wouldn't even have endings.  Sometimes they'd just say "CONGRATULATIONS" or "THANKS FOR PLAYING!" or "A WINNER IS YOU!"

There was also an increase in save points, and people have stopped using lives and continues.  Back in the day, if you couldn't beat a game in one sitting, you couldn't beat a game.

 

I threw in bullet hell games because they're all impossible, indie games because they can do whatever they want and make some crazy hardcore stuff without giant publishers breathing down their necks to throw in aliens, nazis, save points, naked chicks, and cliffhanger endings, and Bejeweled 2 because of that guy who played it for 3 years straight and broke the scoreboard.

Ok I understand your reasoning now, its very consequent and I agree with what your saying. The difference between our opinion on hardcore VS casual is that I think its not about the game difficulty but about the complexity of the game. The definition I was able to find go in that sense too. But, in any case, its not clear and its quite relative.



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Icyedge said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
Icyedge said:
Kantor said:

Tetris and Doom. i.e: The somewhat difficult ones

I think its more about the complexity of the gameplay/story than the difficulty to achieve good score. In my opinion you can be a hardcore tetris player but that doesnt make tetris an hardcore game. What do you think?

Story has nothing to do with it.  Any 2-D platformer is more hardcore than Heavy Rain or Metal Gear Solid 4.

Why not? I think an engaging story will help make a game hardcore. I think that because having an engaging story makes a game more complex. But, I dont mean that the story by itself will make a game hardcore. Now, can you explain why a 2D platformer is more hardcore than metal gear solid 4?

2d platformers and mgs4 exist on the same level. They are core games.

I think rubang was exaggerating a bit when he said that. Not all 2d platformers are on the same level as mgs.

See, mgs is very much a core game, because you play for core-like reasons. You are assigned a score at the end and a rank, you play to advance the story, and there is a skill measurement defined by the game itself.

A hardcore game should be mostly free of skill measurement, rather, it should let the gamer decide for themselves what the skill is. A good way this is done in a game like civilization 4, is that the game can measure any way in which you play it. Prefer fighting? That's fine, there's a way to define how skilled you are at conquering. Prefer diplomacy and culture? Good, same thing. Prefer a mix? That's fine too.

However, in a game like mgs4, compared with something like mario the score only increases when you do something the game wants you to do. For example, you only get points in Mario if you kill an enemy, or get a powerup. There is no score for not killing things and just running through the level. (except the time based score, but you can easily kill things and finish the level in the same amount of time. In fact, only by killing things can you possibly beat it in the fastest time). Same in mgs4. Your rank is based on how few times you are spotted, how few guards you kill, and how much the game is completed.

Anyway, I digress.



Tetris and SMB. Everyone knows NES games were way harder than today's games.



Lurker said:

Tetris and SMB. Everyone knows NES games were way harder than today's games.

Pinball is pretty hardcore, don't you think?



1. Tetris
2. Super Mario Bros.
3. Super Mario Galaxy
4. Commander Keen
5. Madden
6. Need for Speed
7. Halo 3
8. Doom
9. GTA IV
10. Rayman Raving Rabbids

^ underlined ze "hardcores" 

You see, I consider games casual games when they're easy to get into by people who don't play games much. It doesn't have to do with quality like everybody seems to imply these days. I just consider games hardcore when they are hard to play, and you need experience to actually be able to play them and have fun.  

I consider all of these games to be easy to get into, although I'm a bit iffy on commander keen 'cause I've never played it. 



 Tag (Courtesy of Fkusumot) "If I'm posting in this thread then it's probally a spam thread."                               

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theprof00 said:
Icyedge said:
The Ghost of RubangB said:
Icyedge said:
Kantor said:

Tetris and Doom. i.e: The somewhat difficult ones

I think its more about the complexity of the gameplay/story than the difficulty to achieve good score. In my opinion you can be a hardcore tetris player but that doesnt make tetris an hardcore game. What do you think?

Story has nothing to do with it.  Any 2-D platformer is more hardcore than Heavy Rain or Metal Gear Solid 4.

Why not? I think an engaging story will help make a game hardcore. I think that because having an engaging story makes a game more complex. But, I dont mean that the story by itself will make a game hardcore. Now, can you explain why a 2D platformer is more hardcore than metal gear solid 4?

2d platformers and mgs4 exist on the same level. They are core games.

I think rubang was exaggerating a bit when he said that. Not all 2d platformers are on the same level as mgs.

See, mgs is very much a core game, because you play for core-like reasons. You are assigned a score at the end and a rank, you play to advance the story, and there is a skill measurement defined by the game itself.

A hardcore game should be mostly free of skill measurement, rather, it should let the gamer decide for themselves what the skill is. A good way this is done in a game like civilization 4, is that the game can measure any way in which you play it. Prefer fighting? That's fine, there's a way to define how skilled you are at conquering. Prefer diplomacy and culture? Good, same thing. Prefer a mix? That's fine too.

However, in a game like mgs4, compared with something like mario the score only increases when you do something the game wants you to do. For example, you only get points in Mario if you kill an enemy, or get a powerup. There is no score for not killing things and just running through the level. (except the time based score, but you can easily kill things and finish the level in the same amount of time. In fact, only by killing things can you possibly beat it in the fastest time). Same in mgs4. Your rank is based on how few times you are spotted, how few guards you kill, and how much the game is completed.

Anyway, I digress.

Actually the fastest way to beat SMB1 is not kill a single enemy and not get a single mushroom.  They waste too much time.



To be honest, "hardcore games" is a marketing term created by developers who want you to think they're "cooler" than... whoever they're comparing themselves to at the time.



Zkuq said:
Lurker said:

Tetris and SMB. Everyone knows NES games were way harder than today's games.

Pinball is pretty hardcore, don't you think?


Oh yeah. Those pinball wizard guys used to be crazy.



The Ghost of RubangB said:

To be honest, "hardcore games" is a marketing term created by developers who want you to think they're "cooler" than... whoever they're comparing themselves to at the time.


Its that or for HD fanboy to tell everyone the Wii suck because its casual. lol



The Ghost of RubangB said: To be honest, "hardcore games" is a marketing term created by developers who want you to think they're "cooler" than... whoever they're comparing themselves to at the time.

This doesn't make sense since to the developer "cooler" means big sales. "hardcore" games usually sells nowhere near what more casual games do. Of course they are exceptions.   For Example:  A lot of hardcore racing fans wanted F1 2010 to be a hardcore sim. Codemaster on purpose making this game leaning toward more casual in the effect of increasing sales.