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Forums - General Discussion - Obama throws support behind controversial Islamic Center

mhsillen said:
Garnett said:
Kantor said:
Garnett said:
Kantor said:
Garnett said:
Kantor said:
Garnett said:

Lets reverse it and see what it looks like (Note my opinion is probably extreme and i never wish for this to happen)

Christians build a church over the holocaust site, is it wrong?

Of course its not in America, but you get my point.

Plus Terrorist didn't destroy the WTC...

(My opinion)

 

Also i heard that the mosque isn't even on ground zero, but 2 blocks away. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Strange example, since the Nazis weren't actually Christian, but sure, that works.

And of course the mosque isn't on Ground Zero. The Memorial Centre is on Ground Zero.

According to THIS, He had Christian beliefs, but who cares about Hitler.

As long as you see my example, is all that matters.

If its not on ground zero, who cares? It seems like the Media is making the Muslim population out to be the bad guy. (IMO)

It's not so much the fact that it's two blocks away from Ground Zero that irks me. They can build it right next to Ground Zero, for all I care. It's the fact that they are deliberately placing it two blocks from Ground Zero, and even worse, that Obama actually comments on this and has the audacity to approve of it.

It seems to me as though the sole purpose of this move is to annoy people and shove individual rights in everyone's face. Obama is approving of it in a feeble attempt to make the Middle East like him.

Well if its not on top of ground zero, whats the big deal? How much space is enough?

Im gonna agree with the part that they are out to annoy people, but again its not that big of an issue, its just the media saying "The bad guys who blew up the tower, are going to be celebrating over the site where thousands of people died  at".

Any amount of space is fine, as long as they don't care about the distance, or at the very least don't talk about it. They can build their mosque wherever they want to, as long as they stop shoving it in everyone's face.

Its not like muslim's are leaving lots of voice mails on your phone saying "Hey Kantor did you hear we're buiding a mosquq in new york city", its the media that is out to try and make muslams the bad people.

Im tired of hear about this mosque just lilke everyone else is, and the fact is that the mosque is 2 blocks away from ground zero, and the media wont stop talking about how its  a disgrace to WTC families and blah blah blah.


Seems a little insensitive it is important to people

A mosque 2 blocks away from WTC, is not disrespectful to the families of the people that died in there. Seriously guys, its not like Muslims are making fun of 9/11 and  they're not building the mosque directly on ground zero.

I can understand if they build a mosque directly on ground zero, i would be pissed myself, but 2 blocks away is nothing.



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johnsobas said:

so what?  nobody goes into the ghetto and screams the N word for fear of death either.  You can offend people, you just have to understand that people are gonna be pissed off and might do something to you.  They will be put in jail for violent action, your speech will not.  It is still legallly protected speech.  comedy central didn't have to censor it, that was their decision.


You have to be joking

Just a picture, not a word derogatory word.

Why would a picture, not a caricature, a plain old picture warrent death

Please common that is not reasonable  

And why did they censor it? 



superchunk said:
mhsillen said:
Coca-Cola said:

here is a good article on this topic. 

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2010/08/guest_column_tolerance_seems_t.html


That article was well written but I would not hold my breath waiting for them to show some tolerance 


I laugh at stuff like this... when Christianity was in its Dark Ages and patrolling the lands killing anyone who didn't follow their version of Christianity, gays, "witches", etc; Islam was at the forefront of the world's philosophy as it was reprinting the Greek knowledge the Christians burned and building on that in all forms of science, astronomy, math, etc. During this time it was that influence of intelligence from Muslim lands through Spain did the beginnings of the Renaissance begin.

Islam's current plight is directly due to what came after that with being ruled by Turks then Western powers to this day. Instead of flourishing and building off of what they were, they closed down and reverted to barbaric customs, lack of educational dialogue, far lower literacy, and so on.

Now that there are places in the western world like this proposed mosque that could eventually bring about an Islamic Renaissance and a return to the freedoms Islamic society used to allow; you want to not allow it because its within a couple miles of a site that once had 19 people who called themselves Muslims who killed thousands of other people, including hundreds of other Muslims?

Many of you have spoken so many times of the ways of most Muslim countries and how they wouldn't allow the opposite, etc. That's such a hypocritical bullshit answer. WE ARE NOT THEM. WE ARE ABOVE THESE ACTIONS. What's next? Are we going to create anti-gay laws? Oh wait, its ok as long as they don't marry right? Are we going to start measuring the distance of any non-Christian temple to everything else in society in case it might be too close for comfort?

Even after the Christians murdered thousands in the Crusades; Muslims still allowed the many Christian Churches to remain all through Jerusalem and even renovated ones damaged during the fighting. Time we learn from a history instead of repeating its mistakes.


Jump in a time machine and yell at the Christians back then.  That has nothing to do with this.

You put onus on everybody else to be sensitive to this one shady Imam. When in fact this Imam should be sensible. Because common sense tells you that this does not  promote peace thats BS. This does not promote harmony and togetherness.  s

They were Muslims 



HappySqurriel said:
superchunk said:
HappySqurriel said:

And with nearly 70% of Americans who are opposed to the building of the Mosque so close to ground zero this is another example of Obama being out of touch with mainstream American values.

While I (and most people) agree that they have the right to open this mosque, I think it is in remarkable bad taste that they go forward. Much like how someone should have the right to open a shooting range next to Columbine high school, and the responsible gun owners who used that shooting range would have nothing to do with the tragedy, only an insensitive moron would open one in that location.

I don't see the bolded. I work for a military contractor in a republican state (AZ) and Nearly all the people I talk to all agree that this entire thing is stupid and they should be able to build a mosque if the so wish. Considering that I routinely differ with most of these people on political and religious points of views, I think it carries some weight to the notion that anywhere near the majority of the country is against it. I think it is quite the opposite.

"(CNN) - A proposed mosque to be built two blocks from the World Trade Center has little support nationwide, a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll suggests.

According to the new survey out Wednesday, nearly 70 percent of all Americans oppose the controversial plan to build the mosque just blocks away from the solemn site in lower Manhattan while just 29 percent favor the construction."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/11/overwhelming-majority-oppose-mosque-near-ground-zero/

LOL, well at least it is a source. Love to see the similar question proposed as being near a school or Church or any number of other buildings. Bet the answer would be pretty much the same. Problem is they only interview about 1,000 people. It really depends on where those thousand live and their personal beliefs. All I know is the generally right centered group of people I work with in a red state predominantly think it is n't that big of a deal.



Coca-Cola said:

I know you laugh at articles like this but you did not tell us why.  You just went on ranting about how bad Americans were and Christians were and the fact that we are not a Muslim country we need to be different.  Rant all you want about Christian history (and yes crusades were bad and inquisition was worse), but that's back then.  we have evolved and Muslims need to do the same.  so instead of ranting your hate, why not just argue against the article?

He has a good point I think and it's well taken, why do people just rant about how bad christians and the conservatives are.  who is dividing the country - both sides are.

btw, i don't mind the cultural center built there and some conservative points are stupid.  but liberals who yell and rant and call names are stupid.

if christians, in the name of Jesus murdered 3000 people and then build a Christian cultural center there, I would be against it and would plead whoever in charge to not do it.  Maybe use the money to build a mosque or something.

Becaue the article is pointless and stupid. Just as you say it was then and not now in regards to the ugly Christian past, I say its over there and them not over here and us. Same arguement. Two wrongs don't make a right? Does that ring a bell? Just because many Muslim countries are repeating the mistakes of Christianity in the Dark Ages, doesn't mean we should forget what we've already learned. Instead we should learn from the Islamic society of that time and give their ancestors their Renaissance. Part of that is allowing good bridges to be built from the ashes of disaster.

The building is still a good distance away (2blocks is over 1mile and close to 2), so really its a non-issue. Plus, its being orchestrated by a person who has strived hard for a new Islamic Amercian identity that focuses on the path forward and more modern thinking that what is spewed in Saudi Arabia and other religious nuts.



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superchunk said:
HappySqurriel said:
superchunk said:
HappySqurriel said:

And with nearly 70% of Americans who are opposed to the building of the Mosque so close to ground zero this is another example of Obama being out of touch with mainstream American values.

While I (and most people) agree that they have the right to open this mosque, I think it is in remarkable bad taste that they go forward. Much like how someone should have the right to open a shooting range next to Columbine high school, and the responsible gun owners who used that shooting range would have nothing to do with the tragedy, only an insensitive moron would open one in that location.

I don't see the bolded. I work for a military contractor in a republican state (AZ) and Nearly all the people I talk to all agree that this entire thing is stupid and they should be able to build a mosque if the so wish. Considering that I routinely differ with most of these people on political and religious points of views, I think it carries some weight to the notion that anywhere near the majority of the country is against it. I think it is quite the opposite.

"(CNN) - A proposed mosque to be built two blocks from the World Trade Center has little support nationwide, a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll suggests.

According to the new survey out Wednesday, nearly 70 percent of all Americans oppose the controversial plan to build the mosque just blocks away from the solemn site in lower Manhattan while just 29 percent favor the construction."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/08/11/overwhelming-majority-oppose-mosque-near-ground-zero/

LOL, well at least it is a source. Love to see the similar question proposed as being near a school or Church or any number of other buildings. Bet the answer would be pretty much the same. Problem is they only interview about 1,000 people. It really depends on where those thousand live and their personal beliefs. All I know is the generally right centered group of people I work with in a red state predominantly think it is n't that big of a deal.


Sometimes it ends up where some people think its all about how tolerant they are.  They sit so high up in the nest of tolerance looking down at all the unwashed that they do not see how a situation might be a little more complicated.

Why don't you try looking at it from the side of the people who might be appalled by this. 

Yes they have the legal right no doubt and if I had the power I wouldn't stop them but I would try to persuade them not to.



The Daily Show With Jon Stewart Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c
Municipal Land-Use Hearing Update
www.thedailyshow.com
Daily Show Full Episodes Political Humor Tea Party

This video express my point perfectly, plus it really shows the much larger crap Muslims have to deal with in a nation that should have been past this level of ignorance over 200 years ago.

 

EDIT: thanks SosusOCR  for the link.



Slimebeast said:
Killiana1a said:

@ Commentators who have quoted me,

I apologize for having a difference of opinion. I understand exactly where you are coming from. If this Muslim Mosque is built it symbolizes the greatest of American values in tolerance, freedom of religion, and forgiveness of past transgressions. Admirable, but naive when there are those of the Muslim faith who have proclaimed war with the West and have taken actions going back from the first WTC bombings in 1993, 9/11, the 2004 Madrid train bombing,Beslan, the thwarted British subway bombing, Darfur, Abu Sayyaf in the Philippines, and on.

This will also be viewed by militant Islamic extremists as capitulation and victory on their part. Imagine if after the Oklahoma City Bombing allowed a white racist church to be built a few blocks from the site? No one would support it because of what it symbolizes.

I agree that the symbolic victory for radical muslims is a bit of a problem but your analogy is flawed since a white racist church (whatever that is lol) would be much more extremist and provocative than just a regular mosque.

The Muslims need to be accepted and welcomed into American society. By alienating and scapegoating Muslims gives them more reason to revert to carrying out terrorist activities.

There are Muslims and there are Muslims. Not all Muslims are extremists/terrorists. 



mhsillen said:
 


Sometimes it ends up where some people think its all about how tolerant they are.  They sit so high up in the nest of tolerance looking down at all the unwashed that they do not see how a situation might be a little more complicated.

Why don't you try looking at it from the side of the people who might be appalled by this. 

Yes they have the legal right no doubt and if I had the power I wouldn't stop them but I would try to persuade them not to.

Because the entire argument is freakin stupid. Its at least four football fields away from 'ground zero'. Its not even that close to the damn site. Its just a completely retarded argument that is created from hate and misconceptions about reality.

Plus, it doesn't' matter where it was being built, there are those in this nation who will protest it out of their stupid racists views on Muslims and the fodder they've been taught from idiots at Fox news (I use that term very liberally).

You have continually mentioned things like 'real Christians' etc in defense of other horrible actions in Jesus' name, yet, these 19 people somehow idolize all of Islam for you and therefor every Mosque is a terrorist training center. Its just stupid and should be beneath us as a nation.

Did you know there are two other Mosques near ground zero? Should those be torn down because they are too close? Closest one is 5 blocks away. Is that far enough, should the new center/mosque be moved an additional 3 blocks? Does it really make a difference? Its an incredibly stupid argument you're trying to make.

If it was proposed as part of the new buildings actually on the ground zero site, I could understand the backlash, but its not even within eyesight of the area. Just stupid.



superchunk said:
Coca-Cola said:
 

I know you laugh at articles like this but you did not tell us why.  You just went on ranting about how bad Americans were and Christians were and the fact that we are not a Muslim country we need to be different.  Rant all you want about Christian history (and yes crusades were bad and inquisition was worse), but that's back then.  we have evolved and Muslims need to do the same.  so instead of ranting your hate, why not just argue against the article?

He has a good point I think and it's well taken, why do people just rant about how bad christians and the conservatives are.  who is dividing the country - both sides are.

btw, i don't mind the cultural center built there and some conservative points are stupid.  but liberals who yell and rant and call names are stupid.

if christians, in the name of Jesus murdered 3000 people and then build a Christian cultural center there, I would be against it and would plead whoever in charge to not do it.  Maybe use the money to build a mosque or something.

Becaue the article is pointless and stupid. Just as you say it was then and not now in regards to the ugly Christian past, I say its over there and them not over here and us. Same arguement. Two wrongs don't make a right? Does that ring a bell? Just because many Muslim countries are repeating the mistakes of Christianity in the Dark Ages, doesn't mean we should forget what we've already learned. Instead we should learn from the Islamic society of that time and give their ancestors their Renaissance. Part of that is allowing good bridges to be built from the ashes of disaster.

The building is still a good distance away (2blocks is over 1mile and close to 2), so really its a non-issue. Plus, its being orchestrated by a person who has strived hard for a new Islamic Amercian identity that focuses on the path forward and more modern thinking that what is spewed in Saudi Arabia and other religious nuts.

I think the article was well written and makes good points that helps me to understand many American's view on the situation.  I also see what the liberals like John Stewart is saying and he represents many Americans as well.  My conclusion to the situation is that if the Islamic cultural center is built there, I have no problems with it and God bless them and hope it'll be a great place.  However, I think it would be better if these Imams would just come out and condemn terrorists, and all their activities.  Not just little statesments here and there but maybe promise to dedicate part of the center that condemn all terrorists.  Why not talk more about Christians being murdered?  I'm sure if something like that happens, more Americans will understand each other better and just get along.

Obama made a mistake - I agree with what he said, but he forgot to address those who oppose it and their reasons.