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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Wii Motion Plus, 1 year later

Alby_da_Wolf said:
Pyro as Bill said:

I don't ever remember Nintendo claiming 1:1 for the original Wiimote.

"

Iwata: I suppose the obvious question is: if it offers such huge advantages, why didn’t you use it in the Wii Remote from the very start?

Takamoto: We actually looked into the idea of including a gyro sensor at the very start of the Wii Remote’s development. But the idea was rejected due to issues of both space and cost which attaching a gyro sensor would entail.

Iwata: I see. But gyro sensors are measuring devices that have actually been around for a considerable amount of time, aren’t they?

Takamoto: That’s right. They were originally called gyroscopes and were used to measure angle and rotation speed in rockets and the navigation systems of ships. But they were very bulky instruments.

Iwata: They’re fitted in the noses of airplanes as well, aren’t they?

Takamoto: Right. That’s the sort of size we’re talking about. And let’s not forget that they were also extremely expensive."

If you swallow this bullshit, you'll get enterocolitis.

Low cost, small size gyroscopes based on vibrating elements instead of the more bulky rotors were already available when Wii entered its final development stages. Wikipedia is your friend and you'll be able to find enough dates for several kind of gyros.


But were those small gyros effective enough to fill the needs of the Motion ? Unless you can verify that, their story is not bullshit.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

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mortono said:
ChichiriMuyo said:
mortono said:
ChichiriMuyo said:

I think Nintendo sorta blew it.  Athough Pachter was always wrong, he should have been right baout the WiiHD launching in '09 and it should have had M standard, with WSR as an upgrade for people who don't care about output resolution.  With a move like that their sales wouldn't have dipped and they'd have ample support for a product that genuinely improves the experience.  We'll see after the new Zelda, I guess, since that's really going to prove whther or not its going to get support at all.


No I'm glad Pachter was wrong. Wii HD would basically be the PSP Go of console releases.

They just need more motion plus games, not high-definition graphics.

Hah.  More like the Gameboy Color - an adequate way of extending the system's life while adding enough to spur on more development.  Basically, it'd have increased the lifespan of the system so that Nintendo has the time to develop a proper successor, which may be further out than most think.

A Wii HD would have to be a direct successor. When you update graphical capabilities, content is made that is exclusive to the new system. This forces people to buy new hardware and is the definition of a "new generation". 

The GBC and DSi both have boosted graphical capabilities, yet neither is typically seen as a new generation.  Both have exclusive, content, too.

The question is, how interesting would it be to previous Wii owners to have a new Wii that only had the addition of HD graphics and nothing else. They didn't buy the PS3 or 360, so why would they buy a Wii HD?

About as interesting as adding color, or perhaps some cameras.  Some people will jump on board, others won't see a need to.  Also, a very large portion of Wii owners skipped the other two systems because the Wii was the only one targeted to them.  This is like arguing that no one would buy a DSi because they didn't buy PSPs.

And for 360 and PS3 owners, who's to say that they would suddenly be convinced to switch over to the Wii? They would most likely stick with the consoles that already have ample HD content and higher quality online support.

Nintendo doesn't, and shouldn't care about fans of their competitors. They have always focused on their own business, and that's why they made more money at their least successful point than Sony has at their most successful point.

The install base for a 'Wii HD' would be absurdly low because of this. 3rd party developers, as easy as it would be for them to port over their HD content, would deny Nintendo support (as they did with the Gamecube and N64) and blame it on the low install base.

Same with DSi and Gameboy Color.  Or Wii Fit or Wii Motion Plus.  The idea isn't to sell hardware for software's sake but to sell hardware for hardware's sake.  Nintedo makes a lot of money doing that and whether peopel wnat to admit it or not that's actually a good thing for the future of gaming.

Don't get me wrong, Nintendo will at some point release a new console with HD graphics capabilities. But that will be the last thing on everybody's mind when it is revealed. It will have something else like 3d, motion controls, or touch controls, that sets it apart from everything else of the market.

Actually, you've gotten me wrong.  You see, it's not about releasing a new system at all. It's about releasing an updated Wii that has just enough benefits to entice people to make a small upgrade or to get a few extra dollars out of new adopter because there's not much reason in not buying the superior version.  Again, think DSi, GBA SP, or GBC.  It could litterally be nothing more than a Wii with a built-in upscaler and it'd be enough to extend lifetime Wii sales by a couple of years.

As for the current Wii system, all Nintendo needs to do is make awesome, new motion control content and they will extend the life of their system. It also wouldn't hurt to improve their online support, the shopping channel, etc. But they don't need a Wii HD for that (a simple firmware upgrade should do).

Unfortunately that's not quite true.  Sales are already dipping, and while Nintendo has a couple years left in the system's life they could be reaching new highs instead of giving upso much ground to the competition.  You have to also understand, that if Hardware sales decline too much there is little reason to continue supportign it from Nintendo's stance, and typically declines in hardware sales are merely precursors to declines in software sales (which Nintendo is seeing).  With added focus being needed for 3DS and 3rd party support never fully earned, a situation that could have potentially been averted if a relaunch w/ WM was properly supported, it's very unlikely that sales won't continue to decline from here on out.





You do not have the right to never be offended.

LordTheNightKnight said:
ChichiriMuyo said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
ChichiriMuyo said:
mortono said:
ChichiriMuyo said:

I think Nintendo sorta blew it.  Athough Pachter was always wrong, he should have been right baout the WiiHD launching in '09 and it should have had M standard, with WSR as an upgrade for people who don't care about output resolution.  With a move like that their sales wouldn't have dipped and they'd have ample support for a product that genuinely improves the experience.  We'll see after the new Zelda, I guess, since that's really going to prove whther or not its going to get support at all.


No I'm glad Pachter was wrong. Wii HD would basically be the PSP Go of console releases.

They just need more motion plus games, not high-definition graphics.

Hah.  More like the Gameboy Color - an adequate way of extending the system's life while adding enough to spur on more development.  Basically, it'd have increased the lifespan of the system so that Nintendo has the time to develop a proper successor, which may be further out than most think.


Do your research. The GBC came out in 1999, ten years after the original GB. The Wii hasn't even been out half that long, and is selling even faster than the GB, with more hits and killer apps. Claiming it needs a life extention shows you either don't know the facts or are deliberately ignoring them.


You're right.  My bad.  How about DSLite?  Maybe GBASP.  Maybe one of the many other pieces of slightly updated hardware Nintendo is so fond of in the handheld market that all helped to extend their lives and create new peak sales rates.


The Motion Plus is for that purpose. So they need to step up with the software more than just change the system when it actually works.

The Lite and SP were to address tech issues with the systems themselves (bulk including no longer being top heavy for the Light, and rechargeable battery to make a decent light system for the SP), and they were released in the early parts of the cycles, so they didn't really extend the system lives.

So the Wii wouldn't be getting a spech upgrade, but simply a design change, and only if Nintendo feels there is a tech that needs fixing by way of a design change.


And here's what you clearly don't understand - WM has failed to pick up steam because it was merely an add-on.  Had there been a relaunch of the system featuring WM plus other bells and whistles to spur resales, they'd have been earing $250 on the first WM sold to most people instead of $50 (WSR).  Also, it would have been much more encouraging for developers, who also picked up on added advantages of the CGB and DSi, neither of which has ever been counted as sepperate generations by any credible source.

And you're arguing that unnecessary jaggies, which could be fixed with a built-in upscaler, aren't equally tech issues?  I've known people that have said both the original GBA and the original DS were both completely unplayable due to poor lighting.  I can't imagine hearing stronger words about the dreded effects of jaggies. And if you don't think those upgrades extended the lives or their respected systems (minus GBA, which was pushed out a bit early because of the ill-timed PSP launch) you're nuts.

 

And that's why I'm saying Nintendo dropped the ball.  They didn't feel the need, and now the tech of the WM has gone mostly to waste.  Very few games are made to take advantage of it because it's not a standard feature.  They could have made a lot more money, especially off of the WM concept, with a relaunch of the hardware.



You do not have the right to never be offended.

"And you're arguing that unnecessary jaggies, which could be fixed with a built-in upscaler, aren't equally tech issues?"

Just because graphics whores don't like them doesn't make them unnecessary. So if that's your reason to claim the Wii needs and upgrade, it's not a reason. It's whining for bells and whistles, not fixing a top heavy clamshell like the original DS, or making the system visible when the graphics for the GBA were too advanced to see clearly without a light.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

bmmb1 said:

"the disadvantage that only few people have WM" Err... you do realize that between WSR, Tiger Woods 10 and RS2  there have already been at least 20 million WMP sold (if not more), right?

I do.

But given the facts that 73 Million Wii have been sold so far and many WM owners have bought two or more WM , it's safe to assume that the percentage of Wii owners who own WM is 20-25% at most.

So if you're developing a game for the Wii, and you decide that you make the game WM exclusive, that also means that you're ruling out 75-80% of your potential customers with one tiny decision.



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a good thread to revisit: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=80629

tl;dr: trestres was spot on with his OP about wmp not being taken seriously enough by nintendo, I was right about third parties being in a tough position with wmp



Demon's Souls Official Thread  | Currently playing: Left 4 Dead 2, LittleBigPlanet 2, Magicka

LordTheNightKnight said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Pyro as Bill said:

I don't ever remember Nintendo claiming 1:1 for the original Wiimote.

"

Iwata: I suppose the obvious question is: if it offers such huge advantages, why didn’t you use it in the Wii Remote from the very start?

Takamoto: We actually looked into the idea of including a gyro sensor at the very start of the Wii Remote’s development. But the idea was rejected due to issues of both space and cost which attaching a gyro sensor would entail.

Iwata: I see. But gyro sensors are measuring devices that have actually been around for a considerable amount of time, aren’t they?

Takamoto: That’s right. They were originally called gyroscopes and were used to measure angle and rotation speed in rockets and the navigation systems of ships. But they were very bulky instruments.

Iwata: They’re fitted in the noses of airplanes as well, aren’t they?

Takamoto: Right. That’s the sort of size we’re talking about. And let’s not forget that they were also extremely expensive."

If you swallow this bullshit, you'll get enterocolitis.

Low cost, small size gyroscopes based on vibrating elements instead of the more bulky rotors were already available when Wii entered its final development stages. Wikipedia is your friend and you'll be able to find enough dates for several kind of gyros.


But were those small gyros effective enough to fill the needs of the Motion ? Unless you can verify that, their story is not bullshit.

OK, I already gave enough infos, but let's make it even easier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrating_structure_gyroscope

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarioWare:_Twisted!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIXAXIS

BTW, WM Plus itself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_MotionPlus uses a kind of vibrating gyro tech that was first conceptually devised more than 60 years ago, can you honestly believe that it remained expensive and bulky until after 2006, then it became suddenly compact and affordable in 2008-2009?

Edit: anyway, it's quite obvious that not including it since the beginning and not even including it in new consoles after release and selling it separately only for older ones, made it receive less SW support and opened a big opportunity to PS Move that otherwise should have fought a much stronger and better established rival, and would have made Wii receive more "hardcore" games too. So if Nintendo is fine with how it made things go, who are we to argue?



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 



The GBC and DSi both have boosted graphical capabilities, yet neither is typically seen as a new generation.  Both have exclusive, content, too.

With handhelds this might be an easier commitment as the price is usually less, but for a Wii HD you can bet it would be out of many people's price range.

About as interesting as adding color, or perhaps some cameras.  Some people will jump on board, others won't see a need to.  Also, a very large portion of Wii owners skipped the other two systems because the Wii was the only one targeted to them.  This is like arguing that no one would buy a DSi because they didn't buy PSPs.

With a high price and little value, most people will not jump on board. Nintendo would be seeking out an audience that either was not initially excited by HD visuals or already has it with the competition. The Wii snatched it's current audience because it was a new experience, HD would not be a new experience at all.

Nintendo doesn't, and shouldn't care about fans of their competitors. They have always focused on their own business, and that's why they made more money at their least successful point than Sony has at their most successful point.

Agreed. This is a very reason why they shouldn't and won't create a Wii HD which would simply be matching their competitors and entering a red ocean. Instead, they will create something new that distances them from their competitors.

Same with DSi and Gameboy Color.  Or Wii Fit or Wii Motion Plus.  The idea isn't to sell hardware for software's sake but to sell hardware for hardware's sake.  Nintedo makes a lot of money doing that and whether peopel wnat to admit it or not that's actually a good thing for the future of gaming.

Software drives hardware. Nobody buys a Wii because they want a white box sitting in their house doing nothing. They buy it so they can play great games. The reason why I mention 3rd parties is because many people believe that a Wii HD would allow them to include the Wii when they make multi-platform games. It's not true as 3rd parties have abandoned Nintendo long before the Wii, and releasing a Wii HD would not make any difference.

Actually, you've gotten me wrong.  You see, it's not about releasing a new system at all. It's about releasing an updated Wii that has just enough benefits to entice people to make a small upgrade or to get a few extra dollars out of new adopter because there's not much reason in not buying the superior version.  Again, think DSi, GBA SP, or GBC.  It could litterally be nothing more than a Wii with a built-in upscaler and it'd be enough to extend lifetime Wii sales by a couple of years.

Again, if it's just an "HD upscaler", it would fail. Nobody wants to re-buy their Wii unless there is a significant reason to do so. HD is not a good enough reason on it's own (as it has already existed for 4 years). And, again, minor improvements like that on a home console is not going to create significant sales gains.

Unfortunately that's not quite true.  Sales are already dipping, and while Nintendo has a couple years left in the system's life they could be reaching new highs instead of giving upso much ground to the competition.  You have to also understand, that if Hardware sales decline too much there is little reason to continue supportign it from Nintendo's stance, and typically declines in hardware sales are merely precursors to declines in software sales (which Nintendo is seeing).  With added focus being needed for 3DS and 3rd party support never fully earned, a situation that could have potentially been averted if a relaunch w/ WM was properly supported, it's very unlikely that sales won't continue to decline from here on out.

Sales have dipped but that doesn't mean the Wii is on the verge of exiting the market. Even at it's lowest point this year it's still selling more than PS3 (which had a redesign, something like 3 price cuts, tons of exclusive games for the first half of the year, etc, etc). 

The Wii is not on the brink of disaster and even if it was, there is no way a "Wii HD" would have any kind of lasting effect. The only viable option is to release new, expansionary software. Again, software drives hardware. People buy white, boring boxes so they can use them to play fun, interesting games. The Balance Board sold because of Wii Fit. Gameboy Color sold because of Pokemon. MotionPlus sold because of Wii Sports Resort. DSi sold because of DSiWare and the Camera software.

As Reggie said at E3 this year, "Technology is a tool". All these advanced technologies are there to make our games fun and entertaining. If they don't serve that purpose, then it doesn't matter how advanced the technology is, it will not excite anyone and will likely fail at market.







Alby_da_Wolf said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Pyro as Bill said:

I don't ever remember Nintendo claiming 1:1 for the original Wiimote.

"

Iwata: I suppose the obvious question is: if it offers such huge advantages, why didn’t you use it in the Wii Remote from the very start?

Takamoto: We actually looked into the idea of including a gyro sensor at the very start of the Wii Remote’s development. But the idea was rejected due to issues of both space and cost which attaching a gyro sensor would entail.

Iwata: I see. But gyro sensors are measuring devices that have actually been around for a considerable amount of time, aren’t they?

Takamoto: That’s right. They were originally called gyroscopes and were used to measure angle and rotation speed in rockets and the navigation systems of ships. But they were very bulky instruments.

Iwata: They’re fitted in the noses of airplanes as well, aren’t they?

Takamoto: Right. That’s the sort of size we’re talking about. And let’s not forget that they were also extremely expensive."

If you swallow this bullshit, you'll get enterocolitis.

Low cost, small size gyroscopes based on vibrating elements instead of the more bulky rotors were already available when Wii entered its final development stages. Wikipedia is your friend and you'll be able to find enough dates for several kind of gyros.


But were those small gyros effective enough to fill the needs of the Motion ? Unless you can verify that, their story is not bullshit.

OK, I already gave enough infos, but let's make it even easier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrating_structure_gyroscope

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarioWare:_Twisted!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIXAXIS

BTW, WM Plus itself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_MotionPlus uses a kind of vibrating gyro tech that was first conceptually devised more than 60 years ago, can you honestly believe that it remained expensive and bulky until after 2006, then it became suddenly compact and affordable in 2008-2009?


I didn't ask if they existed, but if they filled the needs of the M . There is a difference.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

LordTheNightKnight said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Pyro as Bill said:

I don't ever remember Nintendo claiming 1:1 for the original Wiimote.

"

Iwata: I suppose the obvious question is: if it offers such huge advantages, why didn’t you use it in the Wii Remote from the very start?

Takamoto: We actually looked into the idea of including a gyro sensor at the very start of the Wii Remote’s development. But the idea was rejected due to issues of both space and cost which attaching a gyro sensor would entail.

Iwata: I see. But gyro sensors are measuring devices that have actually been around for a considerable amount of time, aren’t they?

Takamoto: That’s right. They were originally called gyroscopes and were used to measure angle and rotation speed in rockets and the navigation systems of ships. But they were very bulky instruments.

Iwata: They’re fitted in the noses of airplanes as well, aren’t they?

Takamoto: Right. That’s the sort of size we’re talking about. And let’s not forget that they were also extremely expensive."

If you swallow this bullshit, you'll get enterocolitis.

Low cost, small size gyroscopes based on vibrating elements instead of the more bulky rotors were already available when Wii entered its final development stages. Wikipedia is your friend and you'll be able to find enough dates for several kind of gyros.


But were those small gyros effective enough to fill the needs of the Motion ? Unless you can verify that, their story is not bullshit.

OK, I already gave enough infos, but let's make it even easier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrating_structure_gyroscope

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WarioWare:_Twisted!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIXAXIS

BTW, WM Plus itself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_MotionPlus uses a kind of vibrating gyro tech that was first conceptually devised more than 60 years ago, can you honestly believe that it remained expensive and bulky until after 2006, then it became suddenly compact and affordable in 2008-2009?


I didn't ask if they existed, but if they filled the needs of the M . There is a difference.

Nintendo itself was already using them in games in 2004, Sony used them in a controller released in 2006. Were they incredibly bulky, expensive and imprecise and did they become suddenly affordable, compact and precise in 2008-2009?

Anyway, I added something to my previous post too late for you to read and quote it when you answered:

"Edit: anyway, it's quite obvious that not including it since the beginning and not even including it in new consoles after release and selling it separately only for older ones, made it receive less SW support and opened a big opportunity to PS Move that otherwise should have fought a much stronger and better established rival, and would have made Wii receive more "hardcore" games too. So if Nintendo is fine with how it made things go, who are we to argue?"

To sum it up, it was a business decision by Nintendo, if they are fine with it, I'm totally fine too, now they bundle WSR and WM Plus with Wii for no overprice so if and when I buy a Wii I won't have to pay extras for it, good for Nintendo, good for me and good for Sony, and we all lived happy thereafter...



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW!