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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Who believes Wii's successor will have better third party support?

pacman91 on 04 August 2010
Resident_Hazard said:
Bruno Muñoz said:

I would like to say that regarding "Nintendo users don't buy third party games", at least accepted  by the media, fallacy Wii shows otherwise. Lots of crappy third party games have had very good sales, games like MadWorld or The Conduit didn't deserve to sell more than 1 copy and yet they managed to do very respectable figures. B tier franchises, I'm being generous here because I should say C tier franchises, only have a chance to sell well on Wii because 99.99 percent of these games would have bombed terribly hard on the HD platforms.

 

What I bolded is what I'm commenting on:  That's an example of the overly negative attitude (towards non-Nintendo titles) that constantly keeps down the 3rd party companies.  Why would they bother to make AAA-quality titles when A-quality don't sell (MadWorld is a high quality title in every respect, sans game length) because of this kind of attitude.  As I pointed out before, mediocre-quality, hardcore titles on other systems routinely trump slightly higher-quality (though still mediocre) similar titles on other systems.  Again, Haze generally scored about two (out of 10) points lower than The Conduit, but sold vastly better.

If Nintendo gamers are going to have that, dare I say, elitist attitude towards 3rd party games, while still wasting money on pure crap like another Mario Party game just because it's from Nintendo--then 3rd party companies are never going to care about putting their higher quality titles on the system.  Again, Red Steel 2 & No More Heroes 2--very high reviews, shameful sales.  Had they been on the Xbox360 or PS3, no doubt they would've sold much better.  And I'm talking sales numbers, not percentages. 

The RE:Chronicles games certainly aren't perfect, but they're still fun games, and effort was put into them--and they deserve sales.  So does Dead Space Extraction, for that matter.

I'm not ripping on you or anything personally, but simply using your post to illustrate the elitist attitude that I believe is often found in Nintendo gamers (which I had back in the day, to be fair).  Look at my collection now--I've grown a little.

You're not going to get me to buy a rail shooter. Especially when the the equivalent HD game was over the shoulder.  I will not support the resident evil team and anyone else that thinks giving wii owners 'a simpler way to play' will do, which is a real slap in the face. When I see a third party game I think is worth buying-Red Steel2, Monster Hunter tri, boom blox bash party, etc-I'll likely support it.

I want third parties to be able to produce games on nintendo systems. SNES was so amazing because it had third party support AND the established nintendo games. Hopefully nintendo and third parties can have a great relationship moving forward ...but first they have to put forth quality AND a viable concept. 



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HappySqurriel on 04 August 2010
Xoj said:

where u been in the past year? because games like god of war 3, killzone 3, gran turismo 5, will complete say otherwise.

also it depends also its software its optimize for it, of course windows will run better on x86-64 processor than cell emulating it.

still OS with cell/powerpc support like linux outperform  x86 processor with easy. and the same thing it can be said about games.

running a core 2 duo p8600 ati 3470 (680mhz 40stream units very similar to xbox360gpu)on my notebook it doesn't perform as well as my ps3 on games like RE5, FIFA, SF4 that are also o pc

 

consoles OS are not as heavy as windows, code in games its optimize it perform better than best x86_64 cpus.

First off, I haven't seen anything from God of War 3, Gran Turismo 5 or Killzone 3 to make me doubt that a comparable game could be made for the XBox 360.

Secondly, you’re looking at in game performance of a laptop vs. the PS3 and not even considering that the games might be bound by the low end (for a laptop, awful in general) GPU. Back in 2007 most benchmarks of PC games that were also on the PS3 and the High End Geforce 7 and Geforce 8 graphics cards when paired with a midrange or better CPU tended to play these games at higher detail, with higher resolution, and with a better frame-rate than the PS3 did. I have seen nothing to indicate that the real world performance of the PS3 has improved by 8 or 10 times, as would need to be the case for the Cell processor to be competitive with a i7.

The PS3 was a great piece of technology when it was released, but that was 4 years ago and semi-conductor technology has advanced a lot since then. Over the next year or two the PS3 is going to become similarly obsolete as the PS2 and Dreamcast were when the PS3 launched, and it will not look that impressive against even the cheapest console that can be built using modern technology.



pariz on 04 August 2010

I think Nintendo shouldn't haste it with a new console. Not if it is not meant to be ground shaking enough to make it real hard for X360 Kinnect and PS3Move to keep a decent market share. I think it would be wise not to anticipate their move.



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09tarheel on 04 August 2010

I think 3 thigs need to happen for the Wii successor to get the type and amount of support similar to the HD consoles or the PS2 the gen before. The 1st has already happened, the Wii is a success and Nintendo has shown they are still able to sell an extensive amount of home consoles which was in question after N64 and Gamecube. 2) The 3DS needs to be a hit and the big name games (Resident Evil, Street Fighter, MGS, Assassin's Creed etc.) need to sell well, proving 3rd parties can sell on Nintendo consoles if they bring their big guns. 3) The Wii successor needs to be technically similar to the competitors. It can still be the weakest, but needs to be like the PS2 compared to Xbox as somebody said earlier.

I think if all those things happen the next Nintendo console will see its most 3rd party support since the SNES.

I also think there are few more minor factors that could also play a role, such as how do the few big budget 3rd party Wii games do for the rest of the gen (Epic Mickey, Goldeneye), and if the the Wii succesor is the first next gen console to launch that could also be a big help.



Jaos on 04 August 2010

Hopefully the Wii successor will get good 3rd party support from the start, like the 3DS seems to be getting. I'm not quite convinced it will, though. It really doesn't make a lot of sense that Wii didn't get higher budget titles, unless you factor in that

- developers believed Wii hardware sales would be a non-factor, so they allocated most of their resources to the HD development

- developers largely don't like Nintendo as a whole or the Wii in specific (which seems believable to me given the hate the Wii got from a lot of 'hardcore' gamers and the fact that a lot of game designers belong to that group)

- motion control input processing is something very new, and new things often need time to understand them. Also, there's a lot more data to be interpreted than button and analog stick input, and it's harder to interprete - swinging the Wiimote allows a lot more variance between swings even if you try to exactly replicate the motion, than moving an analog stick ever will. So it will be a lot harder to get motion controls done right than traditional controls. So the fact that motion controls are capable of lowering the barrier for casuals to get more into gaming is offset by those difficulties for developers.

I think the last point is underestimated by a lot of people. Nintendo is known for investing a lot of time and effort into the controls, and they have a head start because they start experimenting with the controls at the same time they are developing the controller. In my opinion a lot of 3rd party games (not only on Wii) show that the developer invested a lot less into the controls than Nintendo, and thus they don't feel that good. Casual gamers are less forgiving to controls that don't feel right from the start.

I'm quite interested how developers will treat motion controls in the future now that 360 and PS3 follow the Wii.



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LordTheNightKnight on 04 August 2010
Jaos said:

Hopefully the Wii successor will get good 3rd party support from the start, like the 3DS seems to be getting. I'm not quite convinced it will, though. It really doesn't make a lot of sense that Wii didn't get higher budget titles, unless you factor in that

- developers believed Wii hardware sales would be a non-factor, so they allocated most of their resources to the HD development

- developers largely don't like Nintendo as a whole or the Wii in specific (which seems believable to me given the hate the Wii got from a lot of 'hardcore' gamers and the fact that a lot of game designers belong to that group)

- motion control input processing is something very new, and new things often need time to understand them. Also, there's a lot more data to be interpreted than button and analog stick input, and it's harder to interprete - swinging the Wiimote allows a lot more variance between swings even if you try to exactly replicate the motion, than moving an analog stick ever will. So it will be a lot harder to get motion controls done right than traditional controls. So the fact that motion controls are capable of lowering the barrier for casuals to get more into gaming is offset by those difficulties for developers.

I think the last point is underestimated by a lot of people. Nintendo is known for investing a lot of time and effort into the controls, and they have a head start because they start experimenting with the controls at the same time they are developing the controller. In my opinion a lot of 3rd party games (not only on Wii) show that the developer invested a lot less into the controls than Nintendo, and thus they don't feel that good. Casual gamers are less forgiving to controls that don't feel right from the start.

I'm quite interested how developers will treat motion controls in the future now that 360 and PS3 follow the Wii.


The last part is something I'm planning on making my very first web video about.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

Calmador on 04 August 2010

- The SNES was the last Nintendo console that had great 3rd Party support... ever since then it's been going down the toilet basically until now where at the Wii.... history is not on Nintendo's side

- Also theres a reason for that... from my understanding... Nintendo has pissed off the 3rd developers in those times... and that's why its been lacking in 3rd party. On the N64 Nintendo didn't want to switch to CD and games like Metal Gear Solid weren't possible and thats why it was only found on Playstation... otherwise we'd have Metal Gear Solid 64 in those times. They were pretty darn arrogant.

- The fans... the "hardcore" gamers aren't exactly confident with Nintendo because of the Wii... I'm a lifetime Nintendo fan (until the Wii hit) and I'm not going to get the next Nintendo that easily... Nintendo needs to do something HUGE next gen to win back the "hardcore" gamers it lost with the Wii... but at the same time it would benifit them to keep the casaul, kid, moms, grandma/pa markets too. Next Gen they have come out with a lot of games because it would need to satisfy both these markets.

 

My money is on Nintendo sticking to the casaul, non-gamer market and basically being the way it is now because it's easier... but I think it won't be as successful this time around because all those kids playing Wii right now... are growing up and will be the Teens of next gen and will want play big boy games more. That said I predict next gen will be the gen of Teen and Mature games and I hope Nintendo gets a well deserved hit for thier betrayal to a good chunk of thier traditionand fanbase (I know some of themare actually okay with Nintendo right now... as hard as that is to believe) become the next Sega and then Apple come out with the AppleBox and blow all the consoles way super high tech graphics and games haha jk



All gaming systems, consoles/PC, have thier perks... why fight over preferences? I like Coke and you like Pepsi, that's it, let's not fight over which toy we like best cause that's what they are. Is someone's preference in a toy important or is the relationship between you and your neighbor more important? Answer is obvious, but THE most important thing is your relationship with God almighty. God Bless you in Jesus's name.

I can communicate without talking... I can send a loved one money without actually sending money... and I can commit theft without the product disappearing, the point of theft is the point of theft not one of it's possible symptoms which is the product dissappearing. The thief wants to gain something without paying for it, that's the point of theft, the thief doesn't have to care or anybody else has to care if the product dissappears. The product dissappearing is just a possible symptom of theft. Gifts are sacrfices, in order to give a gift, it has to be a genuine sacrfice/gift, meaning a copy of the game isn't still in your PC. Piracy is theft and/or being a culprit of theft.

WilliamWatts on 04 August 2010
HappySqurriel said:
WilliamWatts said:

Given the fact that the Wii got a modern FPS called Modern Warfare I think that excuse has been thrown out the window for 80% of cases. But I must re-itterate, it really is just a few interns worth of work to do the majority of the porting from the current 'standard' down to Wii level. Its cheaper to port to the Wii from the 360 or PS3 than it is to port to the other HD console.

Probably the reality of the situation is that game developers tend to develop games for themselves first and foremost and not as a service to the wider market. The majority of the game development industry is 20-30, and male so of course they are going to give their attention to the game systems which are designed to fit their demographics. Most of the older and wiser game developers are now in another industry. This isn't about performance, or the controller. Interplays slogan was by gamers for gamers, and the industry as a whole are the type of gamers who play games on the HD consoles.

I think it is simpler than that ...

Most third party publishers discounted the Wii before it was even announced, and any support they gave to the Wii was from their worst teams with very limited budgets. In many cases these developers would be far more likely to develop a Sponge-Bob Square Pants or Dora the Explorer game than any game most gamers would recognize. These developers did the best they could with limited resources and choose to develop simple fun games that took advantage of the Wiimote.

The Wii and many of these games shattered expectations of most third party publishers, but by the time they were willing to admit that the Wii was successful the vast majority of their best teams and their best known IPs had been tied to massive projects on the HD consoles; and any project that would be considered a core-game from most studios was an unknown IP being developed by studios that had a history of producing critically acclaimed niche titles.

 

 

Realistically, the next generation is going to start out quite a bit differently and it is highly unlikely that any studio with a large IP (like Modern Warfare) will be allowed to ignore the Wii’s successor unless it flops in the market. For the most part, more optimistic expectations from launch will lead to stronger support across the board which should lead to better sales across the board, and a feedback loop could form where third party support is justified because of the system’s strong third party support.

Im thinking that the real reason for the lack of support goes deeper than that. I believe theres to the idea that the Wii was cheap to develop than just outright man hours. The industry is built on the concept of young male artists/programmers who are willing to work crap hours for crap pay with crap conditions because these people tolerate it because of the idea that they can have creative input into the games and because they can make the same core games that they like to play.

If the industry moves to actually support a wider audience, they could lose their best programmers/artists which they aquire cheaply unless they pay them more. So as an act of preservation they don't support the Wii because in effect if they have to pay people more to develop expanded market games they have to pay everyone more, even those working on core games. So whilst the HD consoles as a concept increase the development cost on a per project basis, the Wii concept increases their costs on a per developer basis. Nintendo anticipated this which is one good reason why they went for a lower tech console to keep everyones costs down.

Its not that publishers wouldn't support the WIi, its just that they believed that supporting the Wii would be counter to their overall best interests. So the issue has probably never been about outright performance but the fact that on an informal basis the developers inside the publishing houses and outside simply do not want to work on games which they don't want to play themselves. So the studios which support the Wii are only doing so because they have to as they lack the negotiating position to not support the Wii. However even then, if they meet success they too would expect to be able to graduate to making core games. There are very few studios out there which thrive on making expanded market games and that would choose to continue making them if they met any kind of success.

LordTheNightKnight said:


Well MWR had the benefit of the engine also being on the Wii. But other engines are being ported as well. And I agree it costs less to put on the Wii, just that it doesn't cost little. Also, I'm not sure about interns, as there are very few such games downported to the Wii in the first place. Dead Rising was done by an established developer (TOSE, even if some don't like their methods), and MWR was done by Treyarch, which is a full developer as well (they even got Gamecube work when they did the console CoD games).

2. I find I agree with that as well. But it's not a popular thing to notice, since many gamers feel that those games are for them, and should all be for them.

3. I so agree, especially with most of the big games having control setups that have counterparts working on the Wii.

See above, I answered both of you at once. But I didn't want to repeat myself or double post. However I quote you out of respect given the fact that I didn't want you to feel ignored here.



Vertigo-X on 04 August 2010
Calmador said:

My money is on Nintendo sticking to the casaul, non-gamer market and basically being the way it is now because it's easier... but I think it won't be as successful this time around because all those kids playing Wii right now... are growing up and will be the Teens of next gen and will want play big boy games more. That said I predict next gen will be the gen of Teen and Mature games and I hope Nintendo gets a well deserved hit for thier betrayal to a good chunk of thier traditionand fanbase (I know some of themare actually okay with Nintendo right now... as hard as that is to believe) become the next Sega and then Apple come out with the AppleBox and blow all the consoles way super high tech graphics and games haha jk


LOL! You do realize that that argument has been around for close to if not over 20 years?

 

I'm luvin' it!



The BuShA owns all!

Calmador on 04 August 2010
Vertigo-X said:
Calmador said:

My money is on Nintendo sticking to the casaul, non-gamer market and basically being the way it is now because it's easier... but I think it won't be as successful this time around because all those kids playing Wii right now... are growing up and will be the Teens of next gen and will want play big boy games more. That said I predict next gen will be the gen of Teen and Mature games and I hope Nintendo gets a well deserved hit for thier betrayal to a good chunk of thier traditionand fanbase (I know some of themare actually okay with Nintendo right now... as hard as that is to believe) become the next Sega and then Apple come out with the AppleBox and blow all the consoles way super high tech graphics and games haha jk


LOL! You do realize that that argument has been around for close to if not over 20 years?

 

I'm luvin' it!

Glad you enjoyed it... I actually didn't know that opinion existed for 20 years and thought it up myself, is it less of an opinion because it's been around for 20 years? No... but the time the opinion is given could vary the outcome of it being right or wrong. Anyways I think I make pretty good points.



All gaming systems, consoles/PC, have thier perks... why fight over preferences? I like Coke and you like Pepsi, that's it, let's not fight over which toy we like best cause that's what they are. Is someone's preference in a toy important or is the relationship between you and your neighbor more important? Answer is obvious, but THE most important thing is your relationship with God almighty. God Bless you in Jesus's name.

I can communicate without talking... I can send a loved one money without actually sending money... and I can commit theft without the product disappearing, the point of theft is the point of theft not one of it's possible symptoms which is the product dissappearing. The thief wants to gain something without paying for it, that's the point of theft, the thief doesn't have to care or anybody else has to care if the product dissappears. The product dissappearing is just a possible symptom of theft. Gifts are sacrfices, in order to give a gift, it has to be a genuine sacrfice/gift, meaning a copy of the game isn't still in your PC. Piracy is theft and/or being a culprit of theft.