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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Female protagonist? What do you think?

Khuutra said:
Weegee said:
 

 

Ignoring the rest of my post is not a proper dismissal of those arguments; I would like them to be addressed.

Isadora protects Eliwood, and later Kent. Lyndis herself protects the player in the beginning.  Rebecca is very protective of Dart. Priscilla is on a quest to save Raven. Louise protects Pent. Karla can be protective of Butz.

That's only from FE7.

Women in Fire Emblem are not weak and in need of support and protection. You are certifiably, verifiably, objectively wrong. You are saying things that are wrong, period.

Kindly address the rest of my previous post.

First you ignore thing too like why girl almost never have leadership and often lost hope or faith and they need to hear 'don't worry bla bla'.

Lyndis protect the player but the player can be male or female so forget this. All you exemple are guys who does not need protection. Dart is a power house and we never see him helpless or he never needs protection or he never lost hope. Pricillas want to save raven but raven free himself by fooling and intimidating the guard. Pent again does not need protection and we saw him beat everyone , where is his bodygard ? He does not need her. I know that women are not always helpless and/or need protection. BUT we often saw in fire emblem women who need protection and/or need reassurance. But guy ? Maybe Eliwood one time.

But look, you are saying there no women that need protection and support ? You are blind , you like this game and you don't want to admit anyting , you are hopeless.



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lestatdark said:
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

Looks like I'm bad at staying away.

Differences and discrimination are not the same thing. Fire Emblem is chalk full of perfectly strong, fully realized, sexually confident men and women and has some of the most even-handed representations of all genders. Your original point was that women were weaker, which is to say they were worse in a fight and have less utility. That's verifiably false. You've tried to claim that women in Fire Emblem are all stereotyped in the Japanese way (which is to say weak and dependent) and that's both wrong and mildly racist.

Demanding perfect gender equality is not how you fight sexism. Trying to deny certain inherent differences between the sexes is its own special kind of sexism because it implies that there is a certain default mindset that should be portrayed for everyone - and it's predominantly male.

And for the record, yes, there is at least one case off the top of my head where a woman protects a man in Fire Emblem: Louise is the one who guards her husband Pent, in spite of him being an extremely powerful mage.

@Mr Khan:

I agree with point 3 in principle, but there are (very large) schools of critical analysis that reject authorial intent altogether and look at a work in a vacuum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDlcyio0QC4&feature=related

Have we gotten to the point where you're not willing to mount an argument anymore? Why not? I want to get to the root of why you think gender representation has to be not equal but identical in order to avoid sexism. As someone who takes gender relations and depictions in media fairly serious, the idea seems counterproductive, especially since identical representation results in everyone being either men or men who have boobs.

I don't care. Arguing with you is pointless. It's like talking to a wall. Identical? Well in a world with dragons and magic, that would be nice. You know, a girl fighting with a sword with equal strength as her male counterpart (Dont forget the magic world). It would be illogical? Think twice. Fallout devellopers didnt even put differences between sexes in a realistic world. Also, the part about men with boobs is just stupid, it's a game man, a game!

Actually there a lot of cases in which this happens, even on japanese developed games. 

Dragon Quest IV Alena, Lufia II Selen, Final Fantasy XIII Fang, Final Fantasy IX Beatrice (which was way stronger than Steiner), Grandia II Tio. 

These are some of the cases in which a female character has equal, if not higher, strength and power equivalent to their male counterparts.

lolwut? I'm not talking about these games (In a certain way, you helped me out :D). I knew that It exist. I even took the exemple from Fallout 3. I was comparing with FE.



I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

There are several other people in this topic you ocould reply to; you choose to reply to me, for whatever reason, so either you don't think arguing with me is pointless or you like beating your head against that world.

And no, identical portrayals between men and women is not progressive, not in a world that's based around a strategy game scenario. It's one thingn to take an individual and say "she's as strong as any man", that's fine - as said before, Mia is the best swordmaster in FE10 based on raw stats and stat growths and availability - but it's another entirely to say that all men and all women should be exactly alike. Trying to pretend that there are no differences between men and women is firstly narrowing the possibilities of what you can do in a strategy game and secondly it's disingenuous.

You are not being mindful of proper depictions of femininity. You are not behaving like a feminist. You're saying that the feminine perspective can safely be ignored, which is sexist in and of itself.

You ignored arguments too. Like I said, you are just hearing yourself. The strategy? lolwut? You are just an angry FE fanboy. I loled at the last part.

Feel free to make those arguments and point out which ones I've ignored.

I'm not saying you're ignoring arguments (though I suppose you might be) - I'm saying you're ignoring an intrinsic feminine perspective.



Weegee said:

First you too your ignore thing like why girl almost never have leadership and often lost hope or faith and they need to hear 'don't worry bla bla'.

Lyndis protect the player but the player can be male or female so forget this. All you exemple are guy who does not need protection. Dart his a power house and we never see him helpless or he never need protection or lost hope. Pricillas want to save raven but raven free himself by fooling and intimidating the guard. Pent again does not need protection and we saw him beat everyone , where his bodygard ? He does not need her. I know that women are not always helpless and/or need protection. BUT we often saw in fire emblem women who need protection and/or need reassurance.

But look you are saying that there no women that need protection and support ? You are blind , you like this game and you don't want to admit anyting , you are hopeless.

Girls often have leadership in Fire Emblem. Lyndis is probably the easiest example. Eirika and Micaiah easily count too. More, you're generalizing without actually pointing out the large numbers of women who "lost hope or faith and they need to hear" etc. I've provided examples to the contrary. Do I need to do so again? WOuld you prefer I list men who've lost all hope and faith?

You're rationalizing. You said there were no women in protective roles in this game. There are. You were wrong, end of discussion, and any attempt to speak to the contrary is ignoring fact.

The inclusion of some women who need protection or reassurance is not sexism, either, though I can think of very few who are like that - Ninian, I guess?

I am neither blind nor hopeless; I ask you for specifics, over and over. You give none.



Khuutra said:
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

There are several other people in this topic you ocould reply to; you choose to reply to me, for whatever reason, so either you don't think arguing with me is pointless or you like beating your head against that world.

And no, identical portrayals between men and women is not progressive, not in a world that's based around a strategy game scenario. It's one thingn to take an individual and say "she's as strong as any man", that's fine - as said before, Mia is the best swordmaster in FE10 based on raw stats and stat growths and availability - but it's another entirely to say that all men and all women should be exactly alike. Trying to pretend that there are no differences between men and women is firstly narrowing the possibilities of what you can do in a strategy game and secondly it's disingenuous.

You are not being mindful of proper depictions of femininity. You are not behaving like a feminist. You're saying that the feminine perspective can safely be ignored, which is sexist in and of itself.

You ignored arguments too. Like I said, you are just hearing yourself. The strategy? lolwut? You are just an angry FE fanboy. I loled at the last part.

Feel free to make those arguments and point out which ones I've ignored.

I'm not saying you're ignoring arguments (though I suppose you might be) - I'm saying you're ignoring an intrinsic feminine perspective.

I'm not going to point all of them, just read yourself, I suppose you can read right? I noticed that you are often putting fact on how I think, like You are not, you are, you're even if you don't understand what I mean. And you are wrong. That is all. Now, listen to yourself and get out of the topic. You see, I can make easy arrogant awnsers too :D



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I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

Feel free to make those arguments and point out which ones I've ignored.

I'm not saying you're ignoring arguments (though I suppose you might be) - I'm saying you're ignoring an intrinsic feminine perspective.

I'm not going to point all of them, just read yourself, I suppose you can read right? I noticed that you are often putting fact on how I think, like You are not, you are, you're even if you don't understand what I mean. And you are wrong. That is all. Now, listen to yourself and get out of the topic. You see, I can make easy arrogant awnsers too :D

Wait, what am I wrong about here? You've lost me.



Khuutra said:
Weegee said:

First you too your ignore thing like why girl almost never have leadership and often lost hope or faith and they need to hear 'don't worry bla bla'.

Lyndis protect the player but the player can be male or female so forget this. All you exemple are guy who does not need protection. Dart his a power house and we never see him helpless or he never need protection or lost hope. Pricillas want to save raven but raven free himself by fooling and intimidating the guard. Pent again does not need protection and we saw him beat everyone , where his bodygard ? He does not need her. I know that women are not always helpless and/or need protection. BUT we often saw in fire emblem women who need protection and/or need reassurance.

But look you are saying that there no women that need protection and support ? You are blind , you like this game and you don't want to admit anyting , you are hopeless.

Girls often have leadership in Fire Emblem. Lyndis is probably the easiest example. Eirika and Micaiah easily count too. More, you're generalizing without actually pointing out the large numbers of women who "lost hope or faith and they need to hear" etc. I've provided examples to the contrary. Do I need to do so again? WOuld you prefer I list men who've lost all hope and faith?

You're rationalizing. You said there were no women in protective roles in this game. There are. You were wrong, end of discussion, and any attempt to speak to the contrary is ignoring fact.

The inclusion of some women who need protection or reassurance is not sexism, either, though I can think of very few who are like that - Ninian, I guess?

I am neither blind nor hopeless; I ask you for specifics, over and over. You give none.

First, Eirika is AGAIN protected by someone and she often seek advice from Seth. Epraim does not need protection and  he chose what he want with his 2 follower.

Second, no man lost hope and if some have lost faith they regain it by himself. I broke  all your example of man who need protection and/or reassurance from woman. But you know that Micaiah need protection from sothes and the part when she alone in the dark can she protect herself ? No , the black ramdomly apear and ' I'm here to protect'.
Lyndis is bumped by Eliwood and  Micaiah is bumped by Ike.

You want Example ? Micaiah lost hope and need protection , Eirika need advice and protection , the goddess need reassurance , the Queen is just helpless when she watch Lucia be execute , she dominated by her people !

Roy came rescue Lilina he say 'I will protection you' why is not the oposite ? In Fire emblem we never saw a girl saying to a man 'I will protection you' , maybe 'I will fight for you' or 'I will serve you with my life' but never protect.

And if girl need protection but not guy , it's a bad stereotype. And you know what is the result of a BAD stereotype toward a group of people.



           Sequel I want the most :

Patapon 3 , Elite beat Agent 2 , ROTK 12 , Mother 4, Legend of legaia      3, Resident Evil outbreak 3.

Favorite Youtube poop        McDonnald                 Morshu              

                                                  

Khuutra said:
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

Feel free to make those arguments and point out which ones I've ignored.

I'm not saying you're ignoring arguments (though I suppose you might be) - I'm saying you're ignoring an intrinsic feminine perspective.

I'm not going to point all of them, just read yourself, I suppose you can read right? I noticed that you are often putting fact on how I think, like You are not, you are, you're even if you don't understand what I mean. And you are wrong. That is all. Now, listen to yourself and get out of the topic. You see, I can make easy arrogant awnsers too :D

Wait, what am I wrong about here? You've lost me.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRzAyo1HKwU&feature=related



Weegee said:

First, Eirika is AGAIN protected by someone and she often seek advice from Seth. Epraim does not need protection and  he chose what he want with his 2 follower.

Second, no man lost hope and if some have lost faith they regain it by himself. I broke  all your example of man who need protection and/or reassurance from woman. But you know that Micaiah need protection from sothes and the part when she alone in the dark can she protect herself ? No , the black ramdomly apear and ' I'm here to protect'.
Lyndis is bumped by Eliwood and  Micaiah is bumped by Ike.

You want Example ? Micaiah lost hope and need protection , Eirika need advice and protection , the goddess need reassurance , the Queen is just helpless when she watch Lucia be execute , she dominated by her people !

Roy came rescue Lilina he say 'I will protection you' why is not the oposite ? In Fire emblem we never saw a girl saying to a man 'I will protection you' , maybe 'I will fight for you' or 'I will serve you with my life' but never protect.

And if girl need protection but not guy , it's a bad stereotype. And you know what is the result of a BAD stereotype toward a group of people.

Seeking advice and needing protection as a beginning does not mean that a character can't grow and become something strong and self-realized. Of course, needing protection when an entire country it trying to kill you makes sense- Eirika's entire initial quest is based around finding and protecting her brother. Ephraim choosing to do something foolish didn't mean anthing in that context.

Lyndis is never "protected" by anyone. That's verifiably false. People might come to her aid, but it's the same as Hector coming to Eliwood's aid - a consequence on the story, and not a result of her gender.

Micaiah didn't need protection form Sothe: Sothe protected her out of love and fear, not because she wanted it or needed it. You're ignoring the intents of both characters.

And hold the Hell up about Elincia. She wasn't helpless while watching Lucia be executed - that was one of the most important and empowered moments for any character in the series, when Elincia was able to put aside her feelings as Lucia's friend and act as a monarch has to, saving her kingdom in place of acting selfishly. It was the moment when Elincia really became a proper queen, when she proved herself as a woman of iron and able of acting abovee and beyond what was expected of her.

Elincia's ability as a fully realized and strong woman was the entire point of her conflict with Ludveck - he believed she was too weak and womanly to lead Crimea, that she would be too personal and weak to keep him prisoner while Lucia's life was threatened, but she wasn't. The whole point of that scene is that she was strong, much stronger than the enemy gave her credit for, and forcing herelf to watch Lucia be hanged was making herself face the consequences of her necessary actions as a queen.

Elincia was an excellent example of a feminist character who grows past the confines of patriarchy and becomes empowered and capable all on her own.

Lilina did need protecting because she was a little girl. I think it's allowable for little girls to be reassured by promises of protection, especially with being raised by a father as protective and powerful as Hector - and especially with Hector being dead.

And no, that's not a stereotype. That would only be the case if a character needs protection because of their gender, whereas in most cases in Fire Emblem it's based on station, not gender.



Khuutra said:

Seeking advice and needing protection as a beginning does not mean that a character can't grow and become something strong and self-realized. Of course, needing protection when an entire country it trying to kill you makes sense- Eirika's entire initial quest is based around finding and protecting her brother. Ephraim choosing to do something foolish didn't mean anthing in that context.

Lyndis is never "protected" by anyone. That's verifiably false. People might come to her aid, but it's the same as Hector coming to Eliwood's aid - a consequence on the story, and not a result of her gender.

Micaiah didn't need protection form Sothe: Sothe protected her out of love and fear, not because she wanted it or needed it. You're ignoring the intents of both characters.

And hold the Hell up about Elincia. She wasn't helpless while watching Lucia be executed - that was one of the most important and empowered moments for any character in the series, when Elincia was able to put aside her feelings as Lucia's friend and act as a monarch has to, saving her kingdom in place of acting selfishly. It was the moment when Elincia really became a proper queen, when she proved herself as a woman of iron and able of acting abovee and beyond what was expected of her.

Elincia's ability as a fully realized and strong woman was the entire point of her conflict with Ludveck - he believed she was too weak and womanly to lead Crimea, that she would be too personal and weak to keep him prisoner while Lucia's life was threatened, but she wasn't. The whole point of that scene is that she was strong, much stronger than the enemy gave her credit for, and forcing herelf to watch Lucia be hanged was making herself face the consequences of her necessary actions as a queen.

Elincia was an excellent example of a feminist character who grows past the confines of patriarchy and becomes empowered and capable all on her own.

Lilina did need protecting because she was a little girl. I think it's allowable for little girls to be reassured by promises of protection, especially with being raised by a father as protective and powerful as Hector - and especially with Hector being dead.

And no, that's not a stereotype. That would only be the case if a character needs protection because of their gender, whereas in most cases in Fire Emblem it's based on station, not gender.

I never said lyndis was weak or need protection , I just said that she is bumped from her position of leader and it's sad that there just one fire emblem with a main character girl from the begining to the end (fire emblem 4 i think).

When I was compared Eirika and Ephraim look the situation. In stat , Epraim is just better than Eirika. Look at their peronality , Eirika need protection and advice and she got less leadership than is brother , she has less self confidence she need the more advice posible to make a move. But Epraim ,he take a bunch of knight , charge the enemy and win. Foolishness ? Don't forget that he never pick up a fight that he can't win, he has too much leadership for that. Guess what ? He does not make one error and came back alive without a little wound.And it's always like this.

Lilina is a little girl , so she need protection from a little boy who is the commander of the entire lycia army. Yeah...

And your say that it's not stereotype ? Are you saying that it's a hazard that the girl have almost always less leadership, less confidence and less important position ?

Anyway you say that you never saw this in fire emblem. You refuse to see this because you like the game. Am not alone in the world to think like this. I just want 50/50 with the character but you assume that I want  the character to be identical. Maybe it would be the first step to have more main character girl like lyndis.

Also you saying thing like 'the majority of player play with iron weapon' to convince me for X point.

But when i'm saying that the majority of player have more guy than girl in their final party. You saying that you don't care about the majority of player in forum.

Maybe I was wrong about Elincia but for me , when I saw someone totally dominated by his people and the knight in shinny armor come and save the day, I don't think it's a good exemple.

Anyway , we lost our time here, nobody want to change is mind. Look , I don't say that Fire Emblem is a bad game. I'm just angry because I want more girl like lyndis or imagine a Hector personality put in a girl, that would be cool. I want also a identical number of guy and girl in the group of hero. They are always more guy ruler , important general and I want the developper to put 50/50 but they don't.



           Sequel I want the most :

Patapon 3 , Elite beat Agent 2 , ROTK 12 , Mother 4, Legend of legaia      3, Resident Evil outbreak 3.

Favorite Youtube poop        McDonnald                 Morshu