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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Female protagonist? What do you think?

Weegee on 16 July 2010
Helios said:
I_hate_Itagaki said:

Mmm, I agree 50%.

I avoid those games, but I don't tell people to do so. You want to know why I avoid those games? Check that out, you'll see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COt0yvziSuc&feature=related

How can a strong, silent, non-sexualized woman can be a stereotype? It's as rare as a 6 legged pig. And about the males atributes, I totally disagree, but I don't want to argue about that.


"Those" games? Do you mean the God of War ilk?

As for stereotyped gender roles, I'd say they're more common than you think (though characters need not be popular to be stereotyped). Rippley (Alien) is an exellent example of a female protagonist, but she helped pave the way for a kind shallow female warrior (that is just as trite and uninspiring as the male counterpart) that we still see today. If there is nothing 'female' about a character, what's the point of having her be female in the first place?

So your saying that Strong = male characteristic ? Independent = Male Characteristic ?

When you show a women on a screen , she must be with a baby , have pink outfit and be protected by a guy ?

 

 

 



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Helios on 16 July 2010
Khuutra said:
Helios said:

Of course, there are also unabashedly sexualized and objectified characters; and this is true of both male and female protagonists, with equally repugnant results (though not all of it is bad; pre-eminent examples such as Kratos and Bayonetta are so exaggerated as to be humorous and farcical critiques of their respective stereotypes - though only Bayonetta is self-aware of this fact). However, for the male, this problem is alleviated as what is 'male' has long been seen as the model of the idealized man, and the depiction of men is consequently much broader, subtler and more refined.

It probably does little more than show my background in literary studies (i.e. Making Up Shit that Isn't There), but I actually see Baynetta as being more than a parody of sexual stereotypes. She's actually a legitimately strong, empowered female character who never seeks, receives, or needs validation from any male in the story, and is empowered by her sexuality instead of simply being typified by it. She's interesting to me in that on the one hand she's potentially harmful in that she's easily misunderstood, but on the other hand there is something there to be misunderstood, and the people who misunderstand her actually play into the kind of character she is: people who ogle her doing a pole dance miss the point entirely, which is that she's doing it for herself rather than for the player.

This is especially interesting when you compare her to Father Baldr, the prototypical masculine figure of the game, but that might be for another discussion altogether.

Yes, I don't deny it. Maybe I phrased myself poorly. I only meant to say that Bayonetta does parody the objectification of women (along with many other aspects of contemporary culture); not that this was all it did. I could say a lot about the game myself - I especially find it intresting how differently people treat Bayonetta compared to Okami, and even DMC, considering how similar they all are as self-derisive, culturaly subversive, extravagantly 'stylish' experiences; and why people ostensibly fail to realize that Mikami's corpus is, in the main, notable for his use of camp as a means of legitimate artistic expression.



Khuutra on 16 July 2010
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

...How in the Hell is Fire Emblem sexist? Half of the most powerful and important characters are women.

First, the way you attack in the GBA games are Sexist. The guys always have more CON, exemple, a myrmidon/male have more CON than his female counterpart. Same thing for any class. If you want to attack twice, the formula is CON SPE - Weapon, so women are just weaker in general. I don't have the source right no but I'm searching for it (I lost the FAQ when I sold the game).

Second, I was talking about Radiant Dawn. You can't be SS in sword mastery if you are a female swordmaster, but if you are a male, well yes you can. I find the story sexist too, but that's my opinion. For the double strike in RD: You must beat the foes ATK SPE by 4 (ATK SPE = str -Equiped weapon weight), and guys always have more STR.

BTW what characters are important exept for Ike?

WHAT? No. Your ability to attack twice is SPD being 4 points or more higher than your opponent's, after subtracting the amount that your weapon outweighs your CON. What you're leaving out is that swords are the lightest weapons in the game, and CON is not determined by gender. Rebecca and Will have the same CON, and Louise's is actually higher. Lyndis's CON is the same as Wallace's. That's why Lyndis remains the most killinating Lord for the vast majority of the game. Not being as survivable as Hector hardly counts against her.

....Mia can too get SS in Swords. Lots of people use Mia exclusively because her stats cap out faster than Edward and Ziark. She's a monster. What are you on about?

Oh gee I don't know how about Micaiah?



melbye on 16 July 2010

One more thing, i'd rather play a female character than characters like the main guy in Gears of War that looks like he has been on steroids since he was 10



Nintari on 16 July 2010

I personally don't care. Just please don't make the next GTA lead a women.



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Helios on 16 July 2010
I_hate_Itagaki said:

Those games are the 'offensive' portrayals of women you were talking about.

So, what are 'female' characteristics to you?  If we fallows that patern, many characters must be females! Squall is emo, so he must be a girl! I mean, all girls whine and cry! Samus must be a guy, she's running and kiling scary aliens without her frying pan :D

No, that's a strawman (and that goes for you, too, Weegee).

What I am saying is that a realistic take on a male/female character takes the general characteristics of human gender roles into account. A story does not exist in a vacum - it extends to, and is inspired by, the world, and must therefore reflect it.

I played Odin Sphere recently; George Kitami could well be critizised in some respects, but I still think very highly of his portrayal (or rather, characterization) of women, mainly because it, on the whole, makes sense - and thematically, it is quite brilliant. I won't spoil the excellent ending and the thematics thereof, but I will say the women in this game are women (without being weak or frail, i.e. stereotyped), yet in the game, one of the leading femes foils the plans of her insurgent cousin; the other two break free of their respective father/grandfather's influence. An ostensibly feminist creed, would you not agree?



I_hate_Itagaki on 16 July 2010
Khuutra said:
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

...How in the Hell is Fire Emblem sexist? Half of the most powerful and important characters are women.

First, the way you attack in the GBA games are Sexist. The guys always have more CON, exemple, a myrmidon/male have more CON than his female counterpart. Same thing for any class. If you want to attack twice, the formula is CON SPE - Weapon, so women are just weaker in general. I don't have the source right no but I'm searching for it (I lost the FAQ when I sold the game).

Second, I was talking about Radiant Dawn. You can't be SS in sword mastery if you are a female swordmaster, but if you are a male, well yes you can. I find the story sexist too, but that's my opinion. For the double strike in RD: You must beat the foes ATK SPE by 4 (ATK SPE = str -Equiped weapon weight), and guys always have more STR.

BTW what characters are important exept for Ike?

WHAT? No. Your ability to attack twice is SPD being 4 points or more higher than your opponent's, after subtracting the amount that your weapon outweighs your CON. What you're leaving out is that swords are the lightest weapons in the game, and CON is not determined by gender. Rebecca and Will have the same CON, and Louise's is actually higher. Lyndis's CON is the same as Wallace's. That's why Lyndis remains the most killinating Lord for the vast majority of the game. Not being as survivable as Hector hardly counts against her.

....Mia can too get SS in Swords. Lots of people use Mia exclusively because her stats cap out faster than Edward and Ziark. She's a monster. What are you on about?

Oh gee I don't know how about Micaiah?

Mmm, I know Weegee in RL and we finished the game together, so he'll explain you in more details (I'm not an exper in math). I still say that FE is sexist. Maybe I was wrong about the stats (Even if the female chars I used sucked ezept for the girl with the lance) but the story is  sexist IMO. The godesses thing, the queen's 'I can't kill' skill, the ninja who defends the hepless loli, etc. but it' my opinion. It reminds me of a bad anime.

Mia can? But other female can't? Why?

Micaiah is a shit, just use the gay ninja IMO.



Weegee on 16 July 2010
Khuutra said:
I_hate_Itagaki said:
Khuutra said:

...How in the Hell is Fire Emblem sexist? Half of the most powerful and important characters are women.

First, the way you attack in the GBA games are Sexist. The guys always have more CON, exemple, a myrmidon/male have more CON than his female counterpart. Same thing for any class. If you want to attack twice, the formula is CON SPE - Weapon, so women are just weaker in general. I don't have the source right no but I'm searching for it (I lost the FAQ when I sold the game).

Second, I was talking about Radiant Dawn. You can't be SS in sword mastery if you are a female swordmaster, but if you are a male, well yes you can. I find the story sexist too, but that's my opinion. For the double strike in RD: You must beat the foes ATK SPE by 4 (ATK SPE = str -Equiped weapon weight), and guys always have more STR.

BTW what characters are important exept for Ike?

WHAT? No. Your ability to attack twice is SPD being 4 points or more higher than your opponent's, after subtracting the amount that your weapon outweighs your CON. What you're leaving out is that swords are the lightest weapons in the game, and CON is not determined by gender. Rebecca and Will have the same CON, and Louise's is actually higher. Lyndis's CON is the same as Wallace's. That's why Lyndis remains the most killinating Lord for the vast majority of the game. Not being as survivable as Hector hardly counts against her.

....Mia can too get SS in Swords. Lots of people use Mia exclusively because her stats cap out faster than Edward and Ziark. She's a monster. What are you on about?

Oh gee I don't know how about Micaiah?

I know that the CON is not determined by the gender but often in Fire Emblem the guy have more CON than girl. Check this faq (near the end) and check the CON comparaison. http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/468480-fire-emblem/faqs/29563

General And Paladin guy have ALWAYS more CON that their girl conterpart. ALMOST all guy have more CON. And if the developper have program a game in a way that the girl have less chance to do a double attack (which is deadly in fire emblem) than is just pure sexist.



           Sequel I want the most :

Patapon 3 , Elite beat Agent 2 , ROTK 12 , Mother 4, Legend of legaia      3, Resident Evil outbreak 3.

Favorite Youtube poop        McDonnald                 Morshu              

                                                  

Khuutra on 16 July 2010
Helios said:

No, that's a strawman (and that goes for you, too, Weegee).

What I am saying is that a realistic take on a male/female character takes the general characteristics of human gender roles into account.  A story does not exist in a vacum - it extends to, and is inspired by, the world, and must therefore reflect it. And, in reality, there is some difference between the men and women.

I played Odin Sphere recently; George Kitami could well be critizised in some respects, but I still think very highly of his portrayal (or rather, characterization) of women, mainly because it, on the whole, makes sense - and thematically, it is quite brilliant. I won't spoil the excellent ending, but I will say the women are women, yet in the game, one of the leading females foils the plans of her insurgent cousin; the other two break free of their respective father/grandfather's influence. A feminist creed, would you not agree?

I tend to agree with you, here, though I think it bears clarifying that an acknowledgment of certain qualities inherent to observed tendencies of either gender (or, beyond that, qualities which are considered inherent to the gender itself, like the difference between maternal and paternal love) does not preclude qualities that are considered masculine.

My favrotie example here is probably Kreia from Knights of the Old Republic II: she's an immensely maternal figure in many ways, intrinsically female in ways that will uncomfortably remind many players of their own mothers, but she's also a nihilistic embodiment of Nietzsche's rejection of man's reliance on God.

I think the message here is that it is okay to have characters like Commander Shepard, who is (mostly, excludingn how they approach romance) the same whether male or female, so long as tey do not represent the entire spectrum of female portrayals.

Gwendolyn and Oswald was one of my favorite love stories from that year, for the record.



Khuutra on 16 July 2010
I_hate_Itagaki said:

Mmm, I know Weegee in RL and we finished the game together, so he'll explain you in more details (I'm not an exper in math). I still say that FE is sexist. Maybe I was wrong about the stats (Even if the female chars I used sucked ezept for the girl with the lance) but the story is  sexist IMO. The godesses thing, the queen's 'I can't kill' skill, the ninja who defends the hepless loli, etc. but it' my opinion. It reminds me of a bad anime.

Mia can? But other female can't? Why?

Micaiah is a shit, just use the gay ninja IMO.

I'll deal with Weegee separately.

Your opinion is off-base. The creation myth being centered around maternal figures isn't sexist, nor is the ultimate conflict centering around two distinctly female deities sexist. That can't be sexist on its own. The Queen's skill is there so you can train up the weaker units (since she's incredibly overpowered when first introduced), and is easily removed. That's not sexist, it's a matter of utility and easily changed.

You have Sothe's relationship with Micaiah backwards - he needs her, not the other way around, and "protects" her out of a sense of devotion. He acknowledges (and so does she) that he needs shielding from the world just as much as she does, and if one of them is dependent on the other then it's Sothe who is dependent on Micaiah.

Yes, Lucia can also get SS if she becomes a Trueblade. Are you sure you played?

Micaiah is a fine character and one of the best mages for a very big portion of the game, never being outright outclassed until the finale, and that's only on Maniac mode.

Who do you mean by "the gay ninja"? Sothe? Volke? Neither of them is gay. Neither of them fulfill a role that's appropriate for replacing Micaiah, and neither of them are as good at murdering armored enemies (well, Volke can be).