By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General Discussion - Krugman: Spend Now, Save Later

Akvod said:

What are we doing? >.<

Punishing the Jobless

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/05/opinion/05krugman.html?_r=1&hp


Thanks for the link. I can really see how off I was about Krugman after reading that piece.

 

I mean knew Krugman had turned into a bit of a political hack, but I had no idea it had gone that far.



To Each Man, Responsibility
Around the Network
Final-Fan said:
richardhutnik said:

You use gold and silver in economies AS money.  The thing is that, when markets break down, and people can't trust anything, and get basic goods and services, they want food and clothing.  They don't want gold or silver.  You can historically see what happens, from Katrina onward, and even the Soviet Empire.  People bartered goods and services.

Watch this:

That guy was all over the map.  He gave average inflation of gold over the last 180 years, and last 7 years, but not the inflation rate for those periods.  And he gave us the average inflation over the last 70 years, but not for gold.  WTF, that is almost worthless information and he tries to use it to say gold doesn't do as well?  Or is he just saying that even if gold does do as well over the long term it will fluctuate vs. the monetary inflation rate?  I don't even know. 

And yeah, do you know why people in post-Katrina New Orleans weren't buying water bottles with gold?  Cause gold is fucking expensive.  If all you had was $1000 bills, I wouldn't go buying candy bars with them.  And who runs around carrying gold nuggets anyway. 

Yeah, as someone who likes Dave, and thinks he usually gives some pretty solid advice to some pretty stupid people who need it...that was not one of his shining moments.

I'll admit I haven't looked close at this gold thing at all, but I know a apples to oranges argument when I see it and comparing three periods of massively different length and drawing any sort of conclusion from it is iffy at the very best.



To Each Man, Responsibility

If your interested in the value of gold in a destroyed economy, you can find some real-world examples of it.

Using Katrina as a basis for not having gold is incredibly stupid. There was no barter economy when it hit...There was only a survival economy.

For a real answer, look to Zimbabwe and their quantitative easing. When unemployment hit 90%, and bread costed trillions to buy, what did people use?

Gold.

The poor sifted night & day for it in the rivers to find some, and used gold dust as a basis for monetary transactions, since the currency was useless.

Gold has a use if there is an economy at all. For example, if the USA collapsed, foreigners would most likely offer to trade goods for gold, as gold would still have a monetary value outside of America. That is why it would have an intrinsic value.

Could gold be useless in any scenario? Of course. If zombies attack, or nazi space-aliens. But last I checked, these scenarios were far less likely as opposed to inflation/deflation which can still use gold as a means of trade both inside, and outside, of America.

*edit*

Here is the YouTube entry for 'Zinbabwe Gold For Bread Program':

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/feb/11/zimbabwe-gold-panning-starvation-food



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

Sqrl said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
(Really being born in the country making you a citizen should be gotten rid of in general anyway.)

Why on earth do you think that's a bad idea?  What additional restrictions would you place? 

Personally, I would change it to require being born on US soil to at least 'legal residents' of the U.S..
The whole anchor baby thing is massively abused.

Why should it be an anchor?  Sure your baby can stay here ... just not you.  Make a choice. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
Sqrl said:
Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
(Really being born in the country making you a citizen should be gotten rid of in general anyway.)

Why on earth do you think that's a bad idea?  What additional restrictions would you place? 

Personally, I would change it to require being born on US soil to at least 'legal residents' of the U.S..
The whole anchor baby thing is massively abused.

Why should it be an anchor?  Sure your baby can stay here ... just not you.  Make a choice. 

Actually it technically is like that... though they don't let you "make the choice".

By the law, if your an illegal immigrant and you have a legal citizen child, the government deports you and takes your baby.  Your baby being a US citizen.

Of course... such an act is just godawfully horrific... and we never do it except in cases of extreme abuse/crime.

As such, the babies do become anchors.  It literally would be easy to "round up" and send back all those people since the fact they're here illegally kinda comes up due to the fact the baby is the only one qualfied for government support.

The penalty is so horrific pretty much nobody actually wants to enforce it.  Kinda like if the penalty for jaywalking was having your toes cut off.  They'd just stop arresting people for that because that's an asinine punishment.  As such, if you sneak across the border and have a baby... your safe.



Around the Network
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Why should it be an anchor?  Sure your baby can stay here ... just not you.  Make a choice.

Actually it technically is like that... though they don't let you "make the choice".

By the law, if your an illegal immigrant and you have a legal citizen child, the government deports you and takes your baby.  Your baby being a US citizen.

Of course... such an act is just godawfully horrific... and we never do it except in cases of extreme abuse/crime.

As such, the babies do become anchors.  It literally would be easy to "round up" and send back all those people since the fact they're here illegally kinda comes up due to the fact the baby is the only one qualfied for government support.

The penalty is so horrific pretty much nobody actually wants to enforce it.  Kinda like if the penalty for jaywalking was having your toes cut off.  They'd just stop arresting people for that because that's an asinine punishment.  As such, if you sneak across the border and have a baby... your safe.

Okay that's just ridiculous.  Is there some legal reason why they can't just let the parents take the kid with them when they leave? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

No, really.  Stick a passport in its crib and shove them out the door.  Mexico is a little messed up but I don't think they're down to arresting BABIES for illegal immigration. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:

No, really.  Stick a passport in its crib and shove them out the door.  Mexico is a little messed up but I don't think they're down to arresting BABIES for illegal immigration. 


I don't think any country wants to deport their citizens for any reason ...

The parents can choose to move out of the US, and (I believe) this is one of the few ways the United States allows dual citizenship, but the US government won't deport the child.



Final-Fan said:
Kasz216 said:
Final-Fan said:
Why should it be an anchor?  Sure your baby can stay here ... just not you.  Make a choice.

Actually it technically is like that... though they don't let you "make the choice".

By the law, if your an illegal immigrant and you have a legal citizen child, the government deports you and takes your baby.  Your baby being a US citizen.

Of course... such an act is just godawfully horrific... and we never do it except in cases of extreme abuse/crime.

As such, the babies do become anchors.  It literally would be easy to "round up" and send back all those people since the fact they're here illegally kinda comes up due to the fact the baby is the only one qualfied for government support.

The penalty is so horrific pretty much nobody actually wants to enforce it.  Kinda like if the penalty for jaywalking was having your toes cut off.  They'd just stop arresting people for that because that's an asinine punishment.  As such, if you sneak across the border and have a baby... your safe.

Okay that's just ridiculous.  Is there some legal reason why they can't just let the parents take the kid with them when they leave? 

Pretty sure that the legal reason is that they are US Citizens and not citizens elsewhere.  It's something dumb like that.  If they choose to go, they can take their kids with them, but if they're being deported... then you can't legally deport a US citizen. 

Meaning the parents would have to go through the department of children services, which is nearly impossible in another country with no legal standing in the US.  Or... if possible, sign a bill that gives custody of the child to a legal resident.  That's the best option... if you have that option.

It's dumb... for some reason it's controversial to even suggest that kids should be deported with their parents.

http://thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_news/102314/duncan_hunter_on_illegal_immigrants



Basically if you know people who are Illegal Immigrants... it's best to get them to go to a Lawyer and have them set up a document that states who their legal guardian should be if they are deported.

For them to pick someone to trust to either take care of the kid, or even just to fly him back to his parents.

Otherwise the law makes it so the Department of Childrens Services takes over, and you'll have a hell of a time getting that child back, even if there is a legal guardian in the US who could take care of them.

Dumb, dumb stuff.