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Forums - Sales Discussion - Final Fantasy XIII is a MAJOR flop on the 360 - we need to talk about it

thelifatree on 17 April 2010
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
Qays said:
But I do think squares intention like you said to widen the fanbase and they failed. They might have gotten some 13 year old kids like FF8 got me, but no more than if it would have been a normal FF.


I'd say they narrowed the fanbase by alienating existing fans. Final Fantasy is an RPG. People who play Final Fantasy play it because they like RPGs. Making it less of an RPG was a terrible idea.

I would agree.  That and the constant problem of the Final Fantasy series has been they always feel they need to 'reinvent the wheel' every game.  Sure, its good to add new content and even change the gameplay, but not to the extent they do it.

Look back and see many of the most successful game series out there.  Mario, Pokemon, Halo, GTA, The Sims, Dragon Quest.  They got to the place they're at by taking what worked in the previous game and simply adding to it in the sequel.  This is what made them popular with fans and successful as a series.  Final Fantasy however is an enigma.  They make a completly original title, and for the sequel, they start over completely from scratch and throw away nearly 99% of everything from the previous title and start over again.  Its only logical that some people will start to pick and choose which games are 'the best' and which ones 'suck'.  And some others get tired of the series because its a roller coaster ride of 'awesome games' and 'lackluster titles'.  You can't make 'the best game ever' if you keep throwing away your old ideas and starting over.

 

Wth sell, like some people think FFVIII, FFIX, FFXII, are lackluster
Yet many fans claiming it their favorite FF or Favorite.

I think a more correct phrase... instead of which ones are good, and which ones suck. Is the question. "Is this a Final Fantasy That I'll Enjoy" because many people enjoy FFXIII and the other ones I listed.

Like Mario you know what to except, but consequently, I've found them boring since Mario 64.

Sales wise it might make sense to what you're saying which is creating a universe and slowly evolving it. And not reinventing the wheel each time. But that's what they have Dragon Quest for. Maybe Final Fantasy can be that way too.

I don't know, I'd rather them try to do weird things in fail, than become Pokemon, Dragon Quest, And Halo. But that doesn't necessarily mean its the best business decision



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darthdevidem01 on 17 April 2010
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
Qays said:
But I do think squares intention like you said to widen the fanbase and they failed. They might have gotten some 13 year old kids like FF8 got me, but no more than if it would have been a normal FF.


I'd say they narrowed the fanbase by alienating existing fans. Final Fantasy is an RPG. People who play Final Fantasy play it because they like RPGs. Making it less of an RPG was a terrible idea.

I would agree.  That and the constant problem of the Final Fantasy series has been they always feel they need to 'reinvent the wheel' every game.  Sure, its good to add new content and even change the gameplay, but not to the extent they do it.

Look back and see many of the most successful game series out there.  Mario, Pokemon, Halo, GTA, The Sims, Dragon Quest.  They got to the place they're at by taking what worked in the previous game and simply adding to it in the sequel.  This is what made them popular with fans and successful as a series.  Final Fantasy however is an enigma.  They make a completly original title, and for the sequel, they start over completely from scratch and throw away nearly 99% of everything from the previous title and start over again.  Its only logical that some people will start to pick and choose which games are 'the best' and which ones 'suck'.  And some others get tired of the series because its a roller coaster ride of 'awesome games' and 'lackluster titles'.  You can't make 'the best game ever' if you keep throwing away your old ideas and starting over.

Yet its worked fine for them since FF13 launched to the fastest sales in the west, and please that terrible leona lewis marketing campaign couldn't be the reason. In japan its not worked that well for them on the other hand.

When a franchise is 20 year + in age & has its latest iteration launch to record breaking sales for the franchise, you know they do something right. Now we have had this discussion before, last time you claimed S-E advertise down peoples throats to make FF sell, marketing only gets you so far. Its quality that the series has always had that attracts people to it.

Now you say it'll need "legs" to get to FF9 sales (5.3 Million)....well all it needs is 20K per week for a whole year accross both platforms to beat not only FF9 but almost FF12, it'll manage that blind folded. At one point MGS4 legs seemed "terrible", this is back when it had just touched 3 Million, yet now its on its way to 5 Million easily. These games may seem to drop off fast, but they remain firm at a low stady sales rate as they are the "Biggest brand in their genre". 20K sales a week for a whole year means 1 Million added sales. These games disappear from the Top 50, but go to their sales pages a year later & surprisingly you see an extra 1 Million sales there.

This hapens with lots of PS3 games, Motorstorm Pacific Rift at one point felt like it would never get to 1  Million, but throughout last year it kept at 8K - 10K at BAM by the end of the year it had 400K - 500K extra sales due to "small legs", which in the bigger picture is quite cool cus now it seems like it'll get past 1 million.

So far FFXIII has sold 4.6 Million, outselling FF12 is guaranteed at this point. As its such a powerful brand synonymous with quality the game will keep selling till XV is out. 

 

Finally the OP & carl are joking dude.



All hail the KING, Andrespetmonkey

Kenryoku_Maxis on 17 April 2010
thelifatree said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
Qays said:
But I do think squares intention like you said to widen the fanbase and they failed. They might have gotten some 13 year old kids like FF8 got me, but no more than if it would have been a normal FF.


I'd say they narrowed the fanbase by alienating existing fans. Final Fantasy is an RPG. People who play Final Fantasy play it because they like RPGs. Making it less of an RPG was a terrible idea.

I would agree.  That and the constant problem of the Final Fantasy series has been they always feel they need to 'reinvent the wheel' every game.  Sure, its good to add new content and even change the gameplay, but not to the extent they do it.

Look back and see many of the most successful game series out there.  Mario, Pokemon, Halo, GTA, The Sims, Dragon Quest.  They got to the place they're at by taking what worked in the previous game and simply adding to it in the sequel.  This is what made them popular with fans and successful as a series.  Final Fantasy however is an enigma.  They make a completly original title, and for the sequel, they start over completely from scratch and throw away nearly 99% of everything from the previous title and start over again.  Its only logical that some people will start to pick and choose which games are 'the best' and which ones 'suck'.  And some others get tired of the series because its a roller coaster ride of 'awesome games' and 'lackluster titles'.  You can't make 'the best game ever' if you keep throwing away your old ideas and starting over.

 

Wth sell, like some people think FFVIII, FFIX, FFXII, are lackluster
Yet many fans claiming it their favorite FF or Favorite.

I think a more correct phrase... instead of which ones are good, and which ones suck. Is the question. "Is this a Final Fantasy That I'll Enjoy" because many people enjoy FFXIII and the other ones I listed.

Like Mario you know what to except, but consequently, I've found them boring since Mario 64.

Sales wise it might make sense to what you're saying which is creating a universe and slowly evolving it. And not reinventing the wheel each time. But that's what they have Dragon Quest for. Maybe Final Fantasy can be that way too.

I don't know, I'd rather them try to do weird things in fail, than become Pokemon, Dragon Quest, And Halo. But that doesn't necessarily mean its the best business decision

Well true, its been stated many times that the reason Final Fantasy has gone off in this path is to diversify itself, specifically from series such as Dragon Quest.  However, there can be a happy medium between 'slow evolution' and 'totally redoing everything each game'.  Obviously looking at it from a business sense, they may need to start finding that happy medium, because the series is continually losing sales over time.

Final Fantasy still has plenty of brand power, but it needs to find its soul.  And that soul is more than just a weak coalition of cliché character archetypes and a few inserts of Summons/Chocobos each game.  They could do a LOT more to appeal to their fanbase, while coming up with creative new gameplay and stories each game.  Heck, if that simply means lowering the amount of games released and having one team oversee the production of all the Final Fantasy titles, perhaps they should do that.  Its what's helped Dragon Quest stay strong all these years.

@darthdevidem01

Look back on the thread.  We already discussed all the points you brougt up.  FFXIII didn't come out with the largest launch in the west for a FF game and nothing is assured that it'll surpass FFXII in lifetime sales.  Or even FFIX.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

Knoxcore on 17 April 2010

1 million worldwide is a flop? Most games struggle to get to 1 million, even good games. Now Final Fantasy is held to a different standard, but given the audience, 1m on the 360 is hardly a flop.



2011 Predictions

Wii: 17m (100 million total)

360: 13m (63 million total)

PS3: 15m (61 million total)

thelifatree on 17 April 2010
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
thelifatree said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
Qays said:
But I do think squares intention like you said to widen the fanbase and they failed. They might have gotten some 13 year old kids like FF8 got me, but no more than if it would have been a normal FF.


I'd say they narrowed the fanbase by alienating existing fans. Final Fantasy is an RPG. People who play Final Fantasy play it because they like RPGs. Making it less of an RPG was a terrible idea.

I would agree.  That and the constant problem of the Final Fantasy series has been they always feel they need to 'reinvent the wheel' every game.  Sure, its good to add new content and even change the gameplay, but not to the extent they do it.

Look back and see many of the most successful game series out there.  Mario, Pokemon, Halo, GTA, The Sims, Dragon Quest.  They got to the place they're at by taking what worked in the previous game and simply adding to it in the sequel.  This is what made them popular with fans and successful as a series.  Final Fantasy however is an enigma.  They make a completly original title, and for the sequel, they start over completely from scratch and throw away nearly 99% of everything from the previous title and start over again.  Its only logical that some people will start to pick and choose which games are 'the best' and which ones 'suck'.  And some others get tired of the series because its a roller coaster ride of 'awesome games' and 'lackluster titles'.  You can't make 'the best game ever' if you keep throwing away your old ideas and starting over.

 

Wth sell, like some people think FFVIII, FFIX, FFXII, are lackluster
Yet many fans claiming it their favorite FF or Favorite.

I think a more correct phrase... instead of which ones are good, and which ones suck. Is the question. "Is this a Final Fantasy That I'll Enjoy" because many people enjoy FFXIII and the other ones I listed.

Like Mario you know what to except, but consequently, I've found them boring since Mario 64.

Sales wise it might make sense to what you're saying which is creating a universe and slowly evolving it. And not reinventing the wheel each time. But that's what they have Dragon Quest for. Maybe Final Fantasy can be that way too.

I don't know, I'd rather them try to do weird things in fail, than become Pokemon, Dragon Quest, And Halo. But that doesn't necessarily mean its the best business decision

Well true, its been stated many times that the reason Final Fantasy has gone off in this path is to diversify itself, specifically from series such as Dragon Quest.  However, there can be a happy medium between 'slow evolution' and 'totally redoing everything each game'.  Obviously looking at it from a business sense, they may need to start finding that happy medium, because the series is continually losing sales over time.

Final Fantasy still has plenty of brand power, but it needs to find its soul.  And that soul is more than just a weak coalition of cliché character archetypes and a few inserts of Summons/Chocobos each game.  They could do a LOT more to appeal to their fanbase, while coming up with creative new gameplay and stories each game.  Heck, if that simply means lowering the amount of games released and having one team oversee the production of all the Final Fantasy titles, perhaps they should do that.  Its what's helped Dragon Quest stay strong all these years.

umm, Unless Dragon Quest VIII was a terrible dragon quest, it was an incredibly cliched game. It was fun as hell. But, The FFXIII characters to me for the most part some of the series best.

What does dragon quest have in it slimes?. You need Archetypes for a RPG, someone has to be the hero data data data da. When the archetype was broken (Tidus) everyone hated him.

It's been 4 years since a final Fantasy has been released, do you want them to be blizzard?

Why would you question squares FF business plan with this

FF7 = 10

FF8 = 8

FF9 = 5.5

FF10 = 8

FFX-2 = 5

FFXII = 5.5

FFXIII = 4.7+

plus their're doing what you want them to do, anyways because they are making FFv13

If fans would have gotten there way there would have been 20 sequals to 7. Granted we did get spinoffs... and 1/3 is better than most FF Core games)

 

 

FF7 was  a phenomon, you can't just magically pull that out of your butt.



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darthdevidem01 on 17 April 2010

@Kenryoku_Maxis

I agree its HIGH TIME these stupid spin offs stopped

They should dedicate 3 teams to simulteneously work on a mainline FF & 1 team to work on handheld FF's/remakes

These spin offs are oversaturating the franchise.

But its funny seeing you talk about cliche characters considering your a fan of DQ.

again if FF didn't APPEAL to its fan base why is the franchise still going strong 20 years on?

If FF did what Tomb Raider/Crash Bandicoot did and just made the next iteration have "better graphics"....the franchise wouldn't have been this powerful still.



All hail the KING, Andrespetmonkey

Kenryoku_Maxis on 17 April 2010

First off, aside from a couple characters in DQVIII, they aren't just following the set patterns of the previous characters that came before them. Yangus or Jessica isn't a composite collection of previous Dragon Quest characters, such as the characters in Final Fantasy games are pinned as being. The whole Yuffie > Selphie > Rikku or Cloud > Squall > Tidus effect. The characters in DQVIII, and pretty much any DQ game, are very different from other DQ games. That's what I meant by 'cliche'.

As for questioning their business plan, I'm nnot doing that. In fact, I know exactly what they're trying to do. They've even said it. They were trying to make another FFVII. But like you just said, FFVII was a phenomenon. Mostly because it came out at the right place and the right time. Now adays though, the Final Fantasy brand has lots of competition and people have mixed feelings about the series after so many titles. So simply trying to make a game 'like' FFVII with tons of uber graphics and similar characters/storyline isn't going to wow people into buying 9 million copies. That's what I was trying to say. They need to focus on trying to 'fix' Final Fantasy and build back up to that level.

They aren't going to be able to infuse popularity back into the series with one 'wonder' title. It will take multiple successful titles. And as it stands right now, each Final Fantasy, main series or spin-off, is getting mixed feelings from fans and reviewers.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

thelifatree on 17 April 2010
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
First off, aside from a couple characters in DQVIII, they aren't just following the set patterns of the previous characters that came before them. Yangus or Jessica isn't a composite collection of previous Dragon Quest characters, such as the characters in Final Fantasy games are pinned as being. The whole Yuffie > Selphie > Rikku or Cloud > Squall > Tidus effect. The characters in DQVIII, and pretty much any DQ game, are very different from other DQ games. That's what I meant by 'cliche'.

As for questioning their business plan, I'm nnot doing that. In fact, I know exactly what they're trying to do. They've even said it. They were trying to make another FFVII. But like you just said, FFVII was a phenomenon. Mostly because it came out at the right place and the right time. Now adays though, the Final Fantasy brand has lots of competition and people have mixed feelings about the series after so many titles. So simply trying to make a game 'like' FFVII with tons of uber graphics and similar characters/storyline isn't going to wow people into buying 9 million copies. That's what I was trying to say. They need to focus on trying to 'fix' Final Fantasy and build back up to that level.

They aren't going to be able to infuse popularity back into the series with one 'wonder' title. It will take multiple successful titles. And as it stands right now, each Final Fantasy, main series or spin-off, is getting mixed feelings from fans and reviewers.

Yeah, but what I'm saying, is every character in DQVIII was cliched but yangus and that green frog guy I forgot his name he was cool

Tidus and Zidane are not like Squall or Cloud, and Lightning is Female and nice So basically all I can get from that is you can't have a main character who is happy or sad? or in between?

Like I mean the surrounding members are archetypes there are only so many you can have unless you want to have too many of the same one. So you think making a bunch of Khimari's, Cait Stith, Quina like characters would improve the cast?

Zelda Uses The same Little Link Save Princess Zelda, Every Damn Time and I love it, So I don't think that's the problem.

Um in my opinion 7 is the worst one since 7 other than 12. Thats only mine though

FFXIII is not like 7 at all in plot, battlesystem, upgrading, or really anything like I mean it's a JRPG. So they didn't copy 7 and call it 13

Like the only way they were trying to create a phenemon was trying really hard to create something unique

Like I mean FFVII story was not like 8, which was like 9. Final Fantasy X Story (Is my favorite Story), FFXII they focused on combat, and an evil empire (bad cliched story but different), and Final Fantasy XIII, they made you slaves

 

But using the same structure, they almost recreated the phenomem on 10, and all that did was piss people off and make it linear and add voice acting. And be my favorite game

Theres no magical formula for a phenomon. Kind of like Call of Duty MW2. A Ok Console, Shooter Terrible PC, Shooter becomes phenenon for no reason.

 



Qays on 17 April 2010

If I didn't know any better I'd say that Squenix is trying to alternate emo teen drama tripe with more classic fantasy stories in order to keep fans of both in the fold. Compare VIII, X, and XIII with IX and XII, the pattern is there. Unfortunately for people with taste, the emo teen drama tripe sells a lot more.



thelifatree on 17 April 2010
Qays said:
If I didn't know any better I'd say that Squenix is trying to alternate emo teen drama tripe with more classic fantasy stories in order to keep fans of both in the fold. Compare VIII, X, and XIII with IX and XII, the pattern is there. Unfortunately for people with taste, the emo teen drama tripe sells a lot more.

why can't one like both :(