Kasz216 said: Zucas said: I still have mixed feelings on all of this. If it passes, well then we haven't done our job right as this is not going to help. But if it doesn't pass, we screw health care reform for years to come and big insurance companies can continue to "rape" Americans of their rights. This is really just what happens when you have a government of all the people who shouldn't be elected. We elect "suits" and for the rest of us we have no representation. And then they see the only representation they think we have are these extremist neo-fascists that call themselves the "tea party". I guess for me I'm pretty apathetic about the situation as I really don't care what happens now. When its all over anyways, no one will give a shit anymore just like they never give a shit before the media tells them to care. And that's the big problem in America. The people don't care until they think they are supposed to care, and then they get it wrong. Guess I don't blame the "suits" in Congress as much as I blame the people themselves. Oh well, after work I'll see what happened. Health insurance companys aren't screwing america. That's just a silly statement. Non-profit health insurance isn't any cheaper then for profit insurance. That's the problem with this bill... insurance companies aren't the base problem.

So, you're saying that eliminating those obscene executive pay packages and perks wouldn't show any savings whatsoever?

O-D-C said: I haven't been following this very much, what exactly does the bill change? Are you guys getting free health care like us Canadians or is something completely different?

Nope. It's more about regulating the insurance companies. But doing it in the worst posable way.

TheRealMafoo said: O-D-C said: I haven't been following this very much, what exactly does the bill change? Are you guys getting free health care like us Canadians or is something completely different? Nope. It's more about regulating the insurance companies. But doing it in the worst posable way.

How so?

NinjaguyDan said: Kasz216 said: Zucas said: I still have mixed feelings on all of this. If it passes, well then we haven't done our job right as this is not going to help. But if it doesn't pass, we screw health care reform for years to come and big insurance companies can continue to "rape" Americans of their rights. This is really just what happens when you have a government of all the people who shouldn't be elected. We elect "suits" and for the rest of us we have no representation. And then they see the only representation they think we have are these extremist neo-fascists that call themselves the "tea party". I guess for me I'm pretty apathetic about the situation as I really don't care what happens now. When its all over anyways, no one will give a shit anymore just like they never give a shit before the media tells them to care. And that's the big problem in America. The people don't care until they think they are supposed to care, and then they get it wrong. Guess I don't blame the "suits" in Congress as much as I blame the people themselves. Oh well, after work I'll see what happened. Health insurance companys aren't screwing america. That's just a silly statement. Non-profit health insurance isn't any cheaper then for profit insurance. That's the problem with this bill... insurance companies aren't the base problem. So, you're saying that eliminating those obscene executive pay packages and perks wouldn't show any savings whatsoever?

That's correct. In a world run by greed (current for profit insurance company) efficiency is king. In a non profit insurance company, they run far less efficient. It's why not for profit doesn't cost any less.

 

NinjaguyDan said: Kasz216 said: Zucas said: I still have mixed feelings on all of this. If it passes, well then we haven't done our job right as this is not going to help. But if it doesn't pass, we screw health care reform for years to come and big insurance companies can continue to "rape" Americans of their rights. This is really just what happens when you have a government of all the people who shouldn't be elected. We elect "suits" and for the rest of us we have no representation. And then they see the only representation they think we have are these extremist neo-fascists that call themselves the "tea party". I guess for me I'm pretty apathetic about the situation as I really don't care what happens now. When its all over anyways, no one will give a shit anymore just like they never give a shit before the media tells them to care. And that's the big problem in America. The people don't care until they think they are supposed to care, and then they get it wrong. Guess I don't blame the "suits" in Congress as much as I blame the people themselves. Oh well, after work I'll see what happened. Health insurance companys aren't screwing america. That's just a silly statement. Non-profit health insurance isn't any cheaper then for profit insurance. That's the problem with this bill... insurance companies aren't the base problem. So, you're saying that eliminating those obscene executive pay packages and perks wouldn't show any savings whatsoever?

Nope. You can look at the numbers yourself. Nonprofit health insurance companies aren't any cheaper then regular companies, actually they're often more expensive. Executive bonuses are a drop in the bucket... and probably well deserved considering they outperform all the companies that try to be without any profit. If a non-profit group can't offer me cheaper deals then a for profit group... there is a worse underlying cause at hand.

O-D-C said: TheRealMafoo said: O-D-C said: I haven't been following this very much, what exactly does the bill change? Are you guys getting free health care like us Canadians or is something completely different? Nope. It's more about regulating the insurance companies. But doing it in the worst posable way. How so?

The bill is 2,300 pages long, so there is a lot in it, but the highlights are this:

• Insurance companies are not allowed to deny or drop anyone for a pre-existing condition. So if I have cancer and cost 400,000 a year to treat, and go to any insurance company, they have to give me a policy and cover it.
• Insurance companies can no longer cap out. So if I get sick and it cost 10,000,000, they have to pay it all.
• Insurance companies are limited to what they can charge people based on a multiplier. Not sure what it is, but let's say it was 1.5. This means if the most healthy person in the world had a $2000 premium, the most you could ever charge anyone, is $3000.
• Americans are now fined through taxes if they don't get insurance. Something around 2.5% of there taxable income.
• Oh, and tacked on, is the complete removal in the student loan industry. It has nothing to do with healthcare, but they had to add it to get the votes they needed.

So, what this means, is everyones insurance is going up. Not sure how making something more expensive means more people will have it, but logic was lost in this exercise a long time ago.

Actually 48% of people insured privately in the US are insured by nonprofit companies.

So... it really goes to show you... it's not really the companies.

Just... explain to me one more time why free health care is bad? I mean, we Europeans have had it for decennia and it works great for us. Insurance companies are still competing and turning a profit. The quality of care in the EU is on average higher then the US (even higher if you only take the west of the EU) according to the WHO... What is so different in the US? Why wouldn't they be able to implement this right?

Also, going back to your Caterpillar arguement in the OP Mafoo - I'd say it levels the field of competition. Here in Europe, companies have been insuring their employees for decennia.

Can't wait till it passes, myself. America's been well overdue

TheRealMafoo said: O-D-C said: TheRealMafoo said: O-D-C said: I haven't been following this very much, what exactly does the bill change? Are you guys getting free health care like us Canadians or is something completely different? Nope. It's more about regulating the insurance companies. But doing it in the worst posable way. How so? The bill is 2,300 pages long, so there is a lot in it, but the highlights are this: Insurance companies are not allowed to deny or drop anyone for a pre-existing condition. So if I have cancer and cost 400,000 a year to treat, and go to any insurance company, they have to give me a policy and cover it. Insurance companies can no longer cap out. So if I get sick and it cost 10,000,000, they have to pay it all. Insurance companies are limited to what they can charge people based on a multiplier. Not sure what it is, but let's say it was 1.5. This means if the most healthy person in the world had a $2000 premium, the most you could ever charge anyone, is $3000. Americans are now fined through taxes if they don't get insurance. Something around 2.5% of there taxable income. Oh, and tacked on, is the complete removal in the student loan industry. It has nothing to do with healthcare, but they had to add it to get the votes they needed. So, what this means, is everyones insurance is going up. Not sure how making something more expensive means more people will have it, but logic was lost in this exercise a long time ago.

Hmm I see what you mean about insurance prices going up, but isin't this a step towards universal healthcare which is a great thing? i mean under the new bill more people will be covered, therefore more people can be treated, therefore more people are healthy, therefore more people are working? The current unemployment rate in Canada is 8.3% while it is 9.70% in the USA, a huge difference of people considering the population difference (33 million Canadians, 300 million Americans).

But I'm getting off track, most of the things you mentioned are great for the general population, like the fact that you can't be dropped and that insurance companies can no longer cap out, of course this means higher taxes but isin't that a fair trade off for (what seems like) better health care?