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IGN: PlayStation Move, The Wii Perspective

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WereKitten said:
A small note: the rotations are detected by accelerometers+gyroscopes+magnetic sensors apparently. I suppose the latest (earth magnetic field sensor) gives a bearing reading and keeps down the need for calibrations of the gyros. Anyway the accelerometers in the Wii are 100Hz, I don't think the rotation data for the Sony wand will be slower than that.

More importantly: if I were designing a "pointer" based game I wouldn't be using exclusively the rotation data. I'd be mostly using the translation of the glowing sphere as read by the camera.

I think that's precisely the problem. Likely the games that are using a pointer are using the software that analyses images from the PSEye and gives us the position of the wand relative to the camera (fixed to the TV). ALL the games demonstrated have shown lag (similar to Natal's lag), and that lag is fair enough when you're doing full gestures, I think people can appreciate the amount of work the console is doing to replicate what you're doing onto the screen.

 

It's just that when you go and use the same method for something like a pointer, which you definitely want to be fast and responsive (otherwise it's not much of a replacement for dual analogue), you have a lot of overhead for something that should be simple and easy. The fact that the IR camera on the Wii is very simple means it's no burden to the Wii.

 

Maybe they'll solve this if they can figure out a way for the software to analyse the images from the Eye more efficiently, especially for non "augmented reality" games, but I have a feeling this is going to be a permanent problem because they wanted to go with the Eye camera rather than one designed specially for the task.



A game I'm developing with some friends:

www.xnagg.com/zombieasteroids/publish.htm

It is largely a technical exercise but feedback is appreciated.

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Uh oh... Casuals wont undertand how to use this complicated device. I mean just look at how many buttons are placed at the top of the controller! freakin FIVE BUTTONS!!!! Oh NOESSS :( :) >.



WereKitten said:
TWRoO said:
RolStoppable said:
TWRoO, did you just say that even now, in the year of 2010, the PS3 can't run a 1:1 emulation of Wii Play?

As far as I am aware, it can't be as fast as Wii Play (ie getting high scores like 900pts would be nigh on impossible)

Then again, I haven't used the PSMove... I am basing this of the technology it is using (accellerometers are not as immediate tech as cameras)

A small note: the rotations are detected by accelerometers+gyroscopes+magnetic sensors apparently. I suppose the latest (earth magnetic field sensor) gives a bearing reading and keeps down the need for calibrations of the gyros. Anyway the accelerometers in the Wii are 100Hz, I don't think the rotation data for the Sony wand will be slower than that.

More importantly: if I were designing a "pointer" based game I wouldn't be using exclusively the rotation data. I'd be mostly using the translation of the glowing sphere as read by the camera.

Reading the glowing sphere movement means very little though, that's what I am getting at.

If you move the Move (lol) horitontally while pointing at the screen, but without twisting it in any way (1 dimensional movement) then you are, by 1:1 standards, pointing at a new part of the screen. If you do the same movement, but rotate the handle left or right, you could be pointing (as a line of sight down the handle of the device) at the same place all the time, or somewhere vastly different, even though the camera read the same movement in the sphere.

My point was that with the Move, the accellerometers and gyroscopes (and apparently magnetic sensors... I would guess this is like an electronic compass, which could negate some of what I have been saying if it can read tiny movements as fast as a camera, though I doubt it) are having to do the majority of the work, and need to be read constantly to determine which way the device is pointing.

The Wii remote only needs the accellerometers as a periodic check to make sure you haven't moved the remote vertically (while still pointing at the same position) as well as making sure you haven't turned the remote over while not pointing at the screen.



So better motion sensors is the new video game dick measuring contest? Figures.

This won't mean squat. The games will matter more.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

Mr Khan said:

It raises the old presumption that Wii owners have always *wanted* to upgrade to PS3/360, but it was either price or lack of motion controls that were holding them back. It doesn't estimate that their values may be otherwise.

Good point. Looking at the best selling games, right after Wii Sports and Fit there are the classic original Nintendo brands, the ones that were around long before the Wii. Mario, Mario Kart, Smash Bros, Zelda. 

Talking about me, I will always be a Nintendo gamer for these exclusive franchises - I even have to say that most of the Wii-specific features don't really matter to me, an upgraded Gamecube would have been fine. 

 



Currently playing: NSMB (Wii) 

Waiting for: Super Mario Galaxy 2 (Wii), The Last Story (Wii), Golden Sun (DS), Portal 2 (Wii? or OSX), Metroid: Other M (Wii), 
... and of course Zelda (Wii) 
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Demotruk said:
WereKitten said:
A small note: the rotations are detected by accelerometers+gyroscopes+magnetic sensors apparently. I suppose the latest (earth magnetic field sensor) gives a bearing reading and keeps down the need for calibrations of the gyros. Anyway the accelerometers in the Wii are 100Hz, I don't think the rotation data for the Sony wand will be slower than that.

More importantly: if I were designing a "pointer" based game I wouldn't be using exclusively the rotation data. I'd be mostly using the translation of the glowing sphere as read by the camera.

I think that's precisely the problem. Likely the games that are using a pointer are using the software that analyses images from the PSEye and gives us the position of the wand relative to the camera (fixed to the TV). ALL the games demonstrated have shown lag (similar to Natal's lag), and that lag is fair enough when you're doing full gestures, I think people can appreciate the amount of work the console is doing to replicate what you're doing onto the screen.

 

It's just that when you go and use the same method for something like a pointer, which you definitely want to be fast and responsive (otherwise it's not much of a replacement for dual analogue), you have a lot of overhead for something that should be simple and easy. The fact that the IR camera on the Wii is very simple means it's no burden to the Wii.

 

Maybe they'll solve this if they can figure out a way for the software to analyse the images from the Eye more efficiently, especially for non "augmented reality" games, but I have a feeling this is going to be a permanent problem because they wanted to go with the Eye camera rather than one designed specially for the task.

I don't think this is necessarily a software problem.... the calculations involved are probably relatively simple for a computer, but the speed at which the accelerometers/gyroscopes etc can make their measurements (then send them wirelessly to the consoles to be calculated, though that should be the same problem for Wii too) is not as fast as for the camera.

So the packet of data sent might contain an image from the IR camera from 0.001 seconds ago, with accellerometer data from 0.005 seconds ago (well it would actually be from the same amount of time ago I should think, but the accelerometer will not have caught up with real world movements as fast)

For the Wii that is not a problem as it only needs the IR data constantly to map cursor movement. The PS3 has to calculate the data from all three of those devices in the Move (then match it with PSeye data).



This article is crap...

all the demoes sucked.... but this should be better than the Wii...

mmmmk.....

oh wait, it's IGN!



OoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO

MontanaHatchet said:
Shonen said:
z101 said:
The Lag, the annoying light (you want THIS is dark rooms?), and the high price will surely make Move Sonys next flop.

PS MOVE IS THE NEW PSP GO and this is F_A_C_T

I can understand not liking the idea, but geez dude, I've seen you troll the PS Move like...15 times. And I haven't even read that many comments. Lay off it. Dam.


When i trolled the PS move ? Except for my sig ^~ but we live in a free world where 10000000 graphic who*** has being trolling the Wii for years so if (i sad if i where trolling) the "most rip-off piece of hardware i ever see in my life" what would be the problem .-Yeah it was a joke ^^-

GO PATS! 2012 THE YEAR OF NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS'S 4TH SUPER BOWL!

A patriot to the end. GO PATS!

Now playing> THE LAST STORY (Wii) Best RPG I EVER PLAYED. *-*

Nintendo could u please just take my money and give me back my 3DS?!

TWRoO said:

Reading the glowing sphere movement means very little though, that's what I am getting at.

If you move the Move (lol) horitontally while pointing at the screen, but without twisting it in any way (1 dimensional movement) then you are, by 1:1 standards, pointing at a new part of the screen. If you do the same movement, but rotate the handle left or right, you could be pointing (as a line of sight down the handle of the device) at the same place all the time, or somewhere vastly different, even though the camera read the same movement in the sphere.

...

The Wii remote only needs the accellerometers as a periodic check to make sure you haven't moved the remote vertically (while still pointing at the same position) as well as making sure you haven't turned the remote over while not pointing at the screen.

Even with the Wii IR camera it's not like the software pointer is exactly where the physical remote is pointing. You rotate the wiimote, the image of the bar LEDs inside the camera translates in some direction, and through factors of calibration and software elaboration the cursor is moved. Think of games like the Conduit where you can change all the factors of speed and bounding box.

A bit like a mouse the movement will be intuitive if by moving the device up the pointer will move up and so on.

As for your example of translating the wand without turning it

a) doesn't make much sense as a user action if you're using the wand to point, and I would not have any problem as a developer of such a game. I'd throw away the lack of rotation and use the translation to move the cursor. If we're pointing, we're not replicating 1:1 anything, strictly speaking.

b) there's no reason in general to imagine that the cursor shoud lie on the intersection of the wiimote direction and the TV plane, really. Why shouldn't we intercept a virtual plane that is 3 meters in front of a 3rd person shooter protagonist? That's all into calibration.

@Demotruk

It may very well be that the final product has so much overhead that it lags, of course I can't really say for sure until the final product is in my hands. Sony promised that they have a latency of 1 frame, which would be perfectly acceptable, and in several reports the testers were happy with the responsiveness of the system (for example the eurogamer guys called the shooting minigame controls "fast and accurate" and immediatly familiar to playes of wii on-rails shooters).

The two exceptions that everybody noted were the demo of SOCOM 4 in alpha state, that exhibited such choppy framerate that any input method would have latency problem, and the fighting game where some testers reported as "laggy" some situations in which the fighetr didn't follow exactly 1:1 their moves. In other words sounds like a bad description of the character following a predetermined animation sequence at some point.

Frankly, I'm dubious about how good the tech will prove in the end, but I won't say that it will surely lag just because it has more overhead than the Wii solution. I'll adjourne until we have further evidence.



"All you need in life is ignorance and confidence; then success is sure." - Mark Twain

"..." - Gordon Freeman

WereKitten said:
TWRoO said:

Reading the glowing sphere movement means very little though, that's what I am getting at.

If you move the Move (lol) horitontally while pointing at the screen, but without twisting it in any way (1 dimensional movement) then you are, by 1:1 standards, pointing at a new part of the screen. If you do the same movement, but rotate the handle left or right, you could be pointing (as a line of sight down the handle of the device) at the same place all the time, or somewhere vastly different, even though the camera read the same movement in the sphere.

...

The Wii remote only needs the accellerometers as a periodic check to make sure you haven't moved the remote vertically (while still pointing at the same position) as well as making sure you haven't turned the remote over while not pointing at the screen.

Even with the Wii IR camera it's not like the software pointer is exactly where the physical remote is pointing. You rotate the wiimote, the image of the bar LEDs inside the camera translates in some direction, and through factors of calibration and software elaboration the cursor is moved. Think of games like the Conduit where you can change all the factors of speed and bounding box.

That is all to do with the game though, not the tech.... the simple fact is if you had to aim 1:1 with the TV screen, people like me would have to be astonishingly accurate (i have a 13.6 inch screen) as such games that need it have their own calibration.

A bit like a mouse the movement will be intuitive if by moving the device up the pointer will move up and so on. From what I understand of this, you mean ignore the handle and use only the glowing ball to move the cursor.... this would be very responsive sure, but not very easy for someone to be accurate with their movement.

As for your example of translating the wand without turning it

a) doesn't make much sense as a user action if you're using the wand to point, and I would not have any problem as a developer of such a game. I'd throw away the lack of rotation and use the translation to move the cursor. If we're pointing, we're not replicating 1:1 anything, strictly speaking.

That would not work at all. These situations have to be accounted for because the user cannot be expected to keep their hand in the same position and only rotate the wrist, the accurasy of these devices means that even a slight movement in any direction would mean the pointer needs re-calibrating.

b) there's no reason in general to imagine that the cursor shoud lie on the intersection of the wiimote direction and the TV plane, really. Why shouldn't we intercept a virtual plane that is 3 meters in front of a 3rd person shooter protagonist? That's all into calibration.

??? If I understand that correctly, You mean a virtual plane that is where the glowing ball is already, ie as if you are drawing on the TV screen itself but viewing the screen further away? If that is what you meant then that is basically the same thing as my second bit of text (ignore the handle).... it would work brilliantly for some things, it could be like a virtual drawing pad, but for FPS the accuracy of people's hands is an issue (as I said before), holding it mid-air to find the central point of the screen would also be tiring (the central point can't be on your lap for instance, as you wouldn't be able to aim down)
If that was not what you meant then ignore what I said of course.

As I have said though, I can't be sure... perhaps the compass thing it has inside means less reliance on slow accelerometer tech.