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fatslob-:O said:
VAMatt said:

That's all well and good.  But, we know objectively that communism, or whatever you want to call their current hybrid-but-still-super-authoritarian system, can't bring about prosperity in the long run.  So, there isn't any glory waiting at the end of their 100, or 1000, or 10000 year time horizon.  There's just oppression, suffering, and indignity on the way, and at the destination.   

@Bold History has shown this not to be true ... 

The practice of widespread universal suffrage has existed for less than 200 years while the rest of humanity was effectively under so called "authoritarian rule". The Roman empire and the former British empire were not in any way equivalent to the "free world" as we knew it today and yet they were highly prosperous nations for their time which lasted for centuries so as far as I'm concerned an authoritarian system can bring about prosperity in the "long run" that you speak of ... 

It is not 'ideology' that makes one nation succeed over another, it is the 'features' that are important to a nations success. In CIV terms, China has very strong foundations to emerge as both economically and technologically victorious and if their policies including this one ends up helping them produce more engineers/scientists in the end then it is arguably a success ... 

It is also not just surveillance technology where China is succeeding in no matter how much people here want that to be the case since they are globally leading in wireless telecommunications infrastructure as well with Huawei ... 

The prosperity you speak of back then may well be achievable by the Chinese system.  But, it's not something any reasonable, modern citizen of planet Earth would consider a prosperous society.  Yes, the Romans were victorious in many battles, so the warrior class and elites of society were able to rape many women and take many slaves.  They were also able to pillage all kinds of resources from the conquered people.  But, the vast majority of people lived in relative squalor. 

I don't doubt that the Chinese system will be able to bring about a good life for the elites.  They'll be able to rape, murder, and steal to their heart's content, while the average person is unable to find clear air to breathe while peddling their bike to their sweatshop gig.