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Jaicee said:
the-pi-guy said:

Guns and murder are very different.  Murder is factually wrong regardless of your framework.  Prostitution isn't.  

Sex is a very different thing from guns.  You can't take sex away from people.  You can take guns away.  

If you'd mentioned drugs, I would say yes.  All drugs should be legalized.  

How do you feel about banning alcohol?

The problem I have here, is that it feels like you are setting up a false dichotomy.

Full legalization and the nordic model aren't the only solutions, and there plenty of middle grounds between the two.

>You know why that is? 

Sexism is another reason why that is.  People view women having sex to be an impure thing, and something to be actively discouraged.  

>After Germany introduced full legalization of prostitution in 2003, for example, they saw a 70% increase in sex trafficking within the decade. 

The official statistics show the opposite.  A decline in sex trafficking since the passage of the law.  

"The number of trafficking victims has actually decreased steadily since the mid-1990s. According to a Feminist Ire article, numbers decreased from 1200-1500 victims in the mid 1990s to 600-700 from 2008-11 to 425 in 2013.

Ever more surprising: the German per-capita rate of trafficking between 2010 and 2012 was lower than that in Sweden. This, along with recent criticism of how Norway—a country that also criminalizes clients and third parties, fails to investigate trafficking allegations or provide asylum or relief for victims, draws into question widespread claims that “End Demand” laws are an effective tool against trafficking."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trafficking-and-the-state_b_8038252

A lot of authors will point out that prostitution isn't actually as legal as you are claiming.  Most of the German states have regulations that severely limit prostitution.  So federally, it's legal, but in the German states, they aren't as legal.  

Anal sex=rape culture.  

Yikes.  

I'm guessing you have a high opinion of homosexual men, by your argument they are also reinforcing rape culture.  

So because the author says it must be so, as well as some flimsy data.  

Orgasming is complicated, because different people have different wants and they feel things differently.

Way to simplify a complex issue.  

https://www.npr.org/2012/04/17/150589059/carrying-dreams-why-women-become-surrogates

A lot of the issue is

-that you're conflating the entire subject with some very problematic aspects.  

It's problematic to conflate the entire subject of porn with human trafficking.  It's problematic to conflate porn with rape.  Are there problems with how a portion of porn is produced?  Absolutely, but conflating that portion with all of it is problematic.  It's like saying cars should be banned because some of them are used to move drugs around.  

There are a lot of patriarchal issues with how a lot of porn is produced, absolutely.  That doesn't mean that porn is inherently patriarchal.  

-that you're mixing up complicated correlation with causation

Like the claim that women are having less sex or fewer orgasms.  That could be the product of a lot of different things.  Like higher work expectations.  Women are no longer expected to be stay at home moms, and a lot of women are pursuing actual careers.  That could lead to less sex.  A lot of these issues are vastly complicated.  

Some of these issues could be related to genetics, diet, culture, or something else.  All of which are monstrously complicated things.  

There is some research showing a few things, but you really want research to be done several times.  And you really want the research to be done correctly, and done in a way to try showing the difference between correlation and causation.  Without trying to guess at what the causation is.  

Correlation is easy.  You can find apparent correlations with a lot of things.  I saw a correlation between organic food produce and autism rate over the past few decades.  That doesn't mean there's any causation between the two things.  It might be a random correlation, both of them might be indirectly related.  

That's the problem I have with a lot of your studies.  A lot of them show that there might be a correlation, but proving that there's actually a causation is much, much harder.

There's an awful lot above to respond to and I don't know how to break up posts so that I can respond to parts thereof individually, but I'll do my best to separate sub-topics. I'm not going to spend much time on my response though, as I can tell that you're probably not going to change your mind about anything no matter what I say. You seem very determined to maintain your position.

Supposedly I support "taking sex away from people" and "banning alcohol."

This is hyperbolic nonsense. Over-dramatic much?

Supposedly I'm setting up a false dichotomy

No, I'm approximating policy approaches so that the difference in effects can be seen.

Trafficking and rape

Sorry, but sex trafficking is definitely on the rise specifically in countries that have more or less fully legalized prostitution, including in Germany specifically.

Also, 70 to 90% of women and children in commercial sex were sexually abused before they entered the field, which goes to show you that this is a business that cannot do, cannot exist, without sexual violence.

Supposedly I'm homophobic because I pointed out that 70% of women who've practiced anal sex report pain as a result

You obviously know very little about the different ways in which the male and female bodies work, so let me give you a quick anatomy lesson: 1) men have penises that achieve orgasm, and 2) men also have prostates, which are conducive to butt orgasms. Women have neither of these things. Therefore, men's bodies are designed to enjoy anal sex on both the delivering and receiving ends, while for women, unsurprisingly, pain is instead by far the most common experience associated with the practice.


Dismissal of the female orgasm as unimportant

I can personally guarantee you that women very broadly want to experience orgasm during sex. We're not a different species. Women almost always do, in fact, achieve orgasm during sex with other women. The rate for women is much lower in heterosexual experiences though. The trouble, in other words, seems to be that both men and the culture just simply don't much care about authentic female pleasure, or at least not as much as about male pleasure.

Surrogacy

Surrogacy is an uncomplicated issue morally, as far as I'm concerned. I'm sorry, but while a few women may feel that surrogacy benefits them in some way, the  fact is that it is clearly harmful to far more women. No one is entitled to a child, let alone to one with their own personal DNA.

Well on the topic of anal sex; women can and do achieve orgasm from consensual anal sex. The caveat is that the person doing the penetration needs to know how to perform it properly (sadly most straight cis men don't) and the receiver needs to be knowledgeable enough about their own body to know if it's right for them. Some people just can't do anal due to personal or medical reasons. Men and Women both weren't "designed" to have anal sex, we've just come to figure out that it is another way of having a fulfilling orgasm for both sexes. Anal sex does hurt but it hurts for anybody, especially if it's your first time, it's just the way the anus works but proper knowledge and execution minimizes discomfort/pain and it's perfectly safe to perform. It seems you have some misconceptions of anal sex, it's just one of numerous ways different individuals derive pleasure.

Being an inter-sectional feminist I do agree with most, if not all, of your views but your conclusion to outright ban and outlaw these practices and criminalize these individuals is where you lose me and it's one of the reasons I don't subscribe to your brand of feminism. There are A LOT of wrongs with these practices/industries, some of which you have so eloquently explained, but the fact of the matter is that if we made these things illegal, it will only hurt the women involved. Really, the only way forward that I can see is to legalize and regulate it so we can give the care these women deserve so they have a better standard of living.

I would like to know what you think is the best way to achieve the outlawing of these industries and practices and what should be done with the displaced women that were involved? I'm genuinely curious.