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| DonFerrari said: One part on the PC world that kinda of counter balance the improvements on the HW is how about every SW keeps increasing the demand year over year. I simply hate that 5 years later the PC I bought even if I fully format and clean it, it will perform much worse for similar activity than when it was new. While console usually will keep similar performance even you don't do anything. So Console gamers may forget or pretend optimization and updates don't happen on PC, but you can't pretend the end effect on a fixed HW for 5 years are similar among PC and console. On the same time the console gone from mid-tier PC HW to low-end during it's lifetime with games looking better, the equivalent HW of the PC that started with the console will lose performance instead of gaining. |
Remember I have a Core 2 Quad PC as a testing rig from 12 years ago that still runs games today.
And I have a Core i7 3930K as a testing rig from 8 years ago that still runs games today at max settings.
So I can honestly and definitively say I have not experienced the effect of PC's slowing down with time.
Does some software get more demanding as time goes on with successive updates? Maybe, just not a trend I have seen.
| HollyGamer said: That's why next gen will be even better. Freesync Monitor are cheap so it's worth to invest |
Why wait? Some consoles already support such monitors. - However, the true leap will be when televisions support the technology.
| HollyGamer said: Well i know about all of you mention above no need to write , FLOPS can be used to compare for the same bit workload and the same integer support and functionality . Let say you can compare 32 bit fp to 32 bit fp on the same architecture design CPU or GPU. Like "comparing the same line up GPU like RTX 2070 with RTX 2080. FLOPS can be used to market and to tell the difference between those card, so seller or vendor dont have to write all the detail of the advantage everytime they want to sell better product. Unless if you really want telling all those crazy detail to consumer LOL |
The evidence says you can't...
| HollyGamer said: Like I Said I agree, the problem who the hell want to explain all of those to consumer. LMAO |
That is why it's best to avoid it in it's entirety?
| HollyGamer said: Now you getting out of the topic LOL. |
False, I was explaining a pure compute workload that relies on the GPU.
| HollyGamer said: We still have more than a year and half and we don't know if Sony/Microsoft planned behind close door, there is still room for theory and prediction |
Still not as much time as you think it is, they still need to store up inventory for the assembly process (months), they still need to do various logistics like shipping all around the world (months) and the like.
The fact that they are using Zen 2 and Navi is just a testament to Microsoft/Sony not leveraging more cutting edge technologies outside of a few semi-custom improvements.
| HollyGamer said: 20% density improvement is big , especially combined with 10% performance. |
Those were advertising numbers, if you are porting a design from an older process, you are unlikely to achieve those goal points without some significant revisions to your library.
7nm isn't where the buck stops anyway.
| HollyGamer said: Money is important that's why they are looking for future investment not sort temporary sells gain. Spending a lot of money on expansives chip that will be cheaper down the line is very chip proposal , especially when you want to compete on the saturated market. Both companies are ready to loose money to gain consumer and ready to lose some to gain market share. |
7nm+ is likely to be more expensive than 7nm for awhile due to that aspect, lots of retooling needs to take place for a relatively modest gain.
| HollyGamer said: bigger leap in infidelity is not determined by how powerful the GPU alone, it need mass market/peoples that using the platform so Game developer can utilize it , optimize it, and develop for the mainstream. Just look at Ray Tracing , it will be a fad it's only small people buy the GPU and no games are utilizing it because nobody by the games. Like I said you're contradicting yourself, you said you want more powerful console but at the same time you are pessimist , with the progrest. Unlike me i am a realist. With all the current leak and progress i am already happy enough, but i still have hope and dream based on the unknown info that can be theorize to used as debate and speculation. |
Not being pessimistic, I am being realistic.
Yes things like Ray Tracing will catch-on more extensively in the gaming landscape if more hardware supports it... It's already gained significant momentum in the PC space without AMD, without consoles, without mobile supporting the technology, especially in the modding world.
In saying that, Ray Tracing is far from a fad, it's a fundamental shift in rendering that has been taking place for decades and is deemed the "holy grail" of rendering. I wouldn't underestimate it's impact in the future.
And yes I do want a more powerful console as that will reflect on PC titles... But let's be brutally honest, if the consoles leverage the fastest AMD Navi GPU, then performance is likely to sit at around the Geforce 2060 Super, which is a mid-range graphics chip, not a high-end one... I wanted more.
I also wanted more when the 8th gen launched and we ended up with a Radeon 7750/7850 level GPU's, I understood why we couldn't due to cost however, doesn't mean I can't want more?
That isn't a contradiction, it's understanding the situation of something and wanting it to be better.
| HollyGamer said: But than nobody optimizing the games for 1080ti except modders or making your own games. Because games are made and optimize for low spec PC or mainstream PC |
And? It's not like the performance of the 1080Ti disappears into an endless void? PC Gamers will sink that extra performance overhead into driving up resolutions framerates and quality settings. - Conesole games for all their talk of "Optimization" tends to fall around the medium quality presets in games whilst PC games can drive it up to High and Ultra which is a significant step up visually.
Plus I provided evidence that the PC gets optimizations anyway.
| HollyGamer said: Agree but in reality without optimization hardware is just a bunch of lifeless piece of metal without function. |
PC gets optimizations as per the evidence provided prior.
| HollyGamer said: Driver is not the only one, they have API and OS and game design . PC GPU are stuck with bloated API and OS and in fact most games on PC are made on low spec PC on mind, it was held by lowest spec PC. |
Not really. There is no such thing as the "lowest spec PC". - PC's date back decades, there is no cut-off line.
Developers make a decision on the lowest hardware level they are willing to support... Often it's the consoles like the Xbox One and Playstation 4 which sets the baseline of games rather than the PC, especially for multiplat AAA titles.
| HollyGamer said: And also PC are used for not just gaming, all its power are divided. for console you only need to play games. All of 8 core PC will be divided by driver and OS and API to run multi tasking while console only for games. That alone speak why PC need double the performance of console to run the same games. |
Consoles are not used just for gaming.. You can web browse, play music, watch movies, upload twitch streams, record footage, voice/video chat with other gamers... And in the XBox One's case... Runs multiple Operating Systems concurrently and can multitask.
Hence why the consoles reserve more Ram than my Windows 10 Operating System uses.
Maybe you have forgotten that consoles have become more PC-like and that trend will only continue as we enter next gen?
| HollyGamer said: Again Vulcan is still PC low level API, cannot compare directly to the metal optimization on console, and on top of that Directx 12 is still suck , you cannot beat Vulcan on optimization. |
Who cares? Vulkan is on PC? Developers can use it? Direct X 12 is far from being the only game in town.
No developer builds games directly to the metal anymore in machine code, it's a waste of time and money, especially with how good compilers are these days.
| HollyGamer said: Of Course isn't a console thing, but my point is still correct, PC need raw performance due to compatibility on every spec combination on the market, thus it's sacrifice maximal optimization that can only happen on single device like console. |
I have obviously already provided the evidence that the PC doesn't need raw extra performance in order to provide a console-level experience.
| HollyGamer said: Like I said it depend on games developer, not all developer want to re construct their games using console API, most of the times they just lazy and ported directly using Directx or Open GL |
Not always.
| HollyGamer said: If you follow the progress of price and consumer capability on buying product, 599 USD is very cheap if we compared in 2019 to 2007. There is a thing called inflation , 600 USD in 2007 will be equal to 750 USD in 2020 . Consoles are not for lower socio - economic peoples. In fact , poor gamer will just buy budget PC because they can be used for working and play old games, hell they will mostly buy discounted games and often pirated and play free games. Console is for people who spend more money for simple device and don't want to buy maintaining PC. Console is niche product that's why it's always stay below 200 millions sells. 499 USD is super chips for console that will be release in 2020, if the power ratio is good, the problem with PS3 with 599 price is the price ratio . even Xbox 360 is better in most of the games and came up early. |
Oh. So you are saying PC is cheaper?
| HollyGamer said: That's why a hybrid design will be used in this gean, but we are talking about marketing jargon, not what will Developer used, so ray tracing is still a selling point to sell a console. |
From the information we have... Navi on the consoles will be deviating somewhat from the PC derivative of Navi and implementing dedicated Ray Tracing cores into the graphics processor.
| HollyGamer said: On console early year it big advantage. Especially if they have less launch games . But remember it's only works if their previous console are the champion on the market and for the consumer. Xbox will struggle because this gen they only got 40 million consumer, so their fans from this gen will only migrate within that number. PS5 in the other hand will guarantee 100 million PS4 player/gamer who like PS ip and have all their games to buy PS5. So as long PS5 is not following Xbox One X disaster or PS3 disaster . They are on great position on the market. But I bet they will be fine , Sony are not stupid. But i do believe Xbox also will do a great Job, but they need to do more than Sony to gain more consumer. |
Again, I have already provided evidence where it's not a guaranteed recipe for success relative to the machines that are being replaced.
(3DS, WiiU etc'.)
| HollyGamer said: Like I said nobody buy PC alone to just playing games alone, and nobody want to spend time using emulator and update it , there is a reason why console exist , people want something simple. |
PC gamers play alone? The most popular games on PC are multiplayer games.
Majority of console games these days don't even allow for split-screen multiplayer these days.
Consoles are just becoming more PC-like, consoles need updating, games constantly need updating. - Everytime I turn my Xbox One X on... Chances are I have 10's of Gigabytes worth of patches that needs to roll down the internet tubes and be applied... If that is "console convenience and simplicity" - You can keep it.
--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--
