The US Politics |OT|

[jason1637]

sundin13 said:

jason1637 said:

I'm not assuming that everyone that commits suicide with a gun will do so other ways if they did not have a gun. I'm just saying that taking away their gun does not take away their emotions that lead them to comitt sucide so it's reasonable to believe that the end result will still be the same. This wont apply to everyone ofc but still when the UK implemented gun control policies in the late 90s their did not decrease the years that followed.

That washington post article is just a bunch of random numbers. They assume that if there were a lack of guns only 41$ of people would try other methods but don't explain how they got that 41% number. They also claim that the other methods are not as lethal as a gun which is just wrong.

The second study only accounts for kids aged 10-19. This age demographic actually has the lowest suicide rates and this study doesnt account for accidents. But anyway I already have said that there should be stricter lock up laws to prevent these accidents.

I'm not paying $37 or subscribing to read that BMJ Journals report.

This report also doesnt account for accidents.

I can't read this report without paying a sub to Oxford.

1) The WaPo article does explain how they got their numbers.

2) Yes, the other methods that they discussed in the article do have lower lethality rates.

3) Yes, one study accounts for youths. Others account for the general population. This is a non-point.

4) If you can't access one article, feel free to look at any of the dozens of others which point out the exact same thing.

Again, feel free to actually post a rebuttal instead of just saying "Yeah, but I don't believe it". It wasn't a good argument the first time and it isn't a good argument now...

As for the trend in the UK which you pointed out, there are far too many additional variables to be able to make a conclusion from just that information alone. When additional variables are accounted for (such as in the studies I posted), that trend doesn't hold up. To say that suicide rates can be high in countries with low gun ownership is irrelevant unless you can somehow prove that the suicide rate would not be higher if gun ownership were higher (which I'm betting you can't).

1/2. No they don't. "Fifty percent of Americans who commit suicide do so with a gun. In our hypothetical, we assume that figure is just 9 percent — the average level of those four other Western countries. We then assumed the remaining 41 percent would try to commit suicide by other methods, such as suffocation or poisoning. Because none of these methods is as lethal as a gun, fewer people would succeed at committing suicide than if they used firearms. Of course, in reality, it’s possible some people in this 41 percent would not attempt suicide otherwise; we assume they all do to keep our estimate conservative."

The 9% makes sense since they just averaged other western countries but the 41 percent number is totally random.

As for lethality the report fails to adress the different type of guns used and what area of the body si shot. http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/statistics-most-lethal-methods This is a list of the most lethal methods. Shotgun shot to the head is #1 but shotguns are by far the least common method used to comitt sucide. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1350343/pdf/amjph00246-0074.pdf. The use of Cyanide and a general shot the head would come in second. But getting hit by a train and using explosives come pretty close. The report failed to address these methods too.

3/4. The study that accounts for youth fails to take into account accidents. The generla population study I can't read unless i pay a fee but i'm not gonna do that.

I have looked some up and what i've found is that stricter gun laws reduce suicides by firearms. That's pretty obvious but I have yet to find anything about general suicide rates.

I have provided a rebuttal. If you take away the guns you're just taking away one of the many tools available. The emotions that lead someone to commit sucide is still there. Here is an article that explains why you can't properly relate gun ownership to suide because we we don't know who has guns or not since there's no gun registry or gun purchase documentation.

https://mises.org/wire/more-evidence-guns-dont-cause-suicide

Ther is also another study that shows that stricter gun laws don't show overall decrease in risk of suicide rates in a population.https://www.nap.edu/read/10881/chapter/9