What is Gender?

[o_O.Q]

the-pi-guy said:

o_O.Q said:

now what I would say is that its simply a function of sex/biology but you have decided to throw that away, so what is gender derived from in your view?

I have so far heard that its simply clothing, is that your belief? that if I wanted to become a man then all i'd need to do is change up the clothing I wear?

why could I then not decide to invent some new clothing styles to represent a new gender I have created?

why couldn't I paste a horn to my head and call myself a unicorn?

No one has said that gender is derived from clothing.  What was said was the opposite.  That people who are transgender men will tend to dress like stereotypical men, and similarly people who are transgender women will tend to dress like stereotypical women.  

I don't think you have yet to answer this question:

How do you define men/women?  

If you go by chromosomes: you run into 2 difficulties:

The first difficulty is that a small number of people don't know what they are.  Some people are born with XX chromosomes, and yet they are born with a penis.  

The second difficulty is that not everyone has XY or XX.  

If you go by whether they have a "male" parts/ "female" parts, you run into another difficulty:

There are some people born with both sets of parts.  Where do they go?

However you biologically define gender, you at minimum need to accept that scientifically there are at least 3 genders.  That's a fact you keep ignoring or dismissing.

You keep trying to bring up the species argument, but how do you think society would care?  Suppose that someone out there really wanted to be a unicorn, what does it matter?  How do you think that would affect society?  

What I mean by how is the following, this is how transgenderism affects society:

-people have to respect what other people are called (holy cow, just like it is right now!)

-people have to respect what gender someone wants to be (I know, it's totally different from what we have right now where we only respect what gender someone is.)

And that's pretty much it.  There's no massive societal shift, there's nothing.  

If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and yet they still act like a regular person.  I don't consider that an issue. It doesn't change anything. 

If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and act like they are a unicorn, that's only an issue because that person is going to have a lot of issues with life.  As long as they are being respectful of other people, I really don't care.

"No one has said that gender is derived from clothing. "

*looks a couple pages back*

"

so for you clothes determine who is man and who is woman? would that be a fair conclusion?

Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%."

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9017717

i could look through other thread i've participated in and bring up even more if you want

"If you go by chromosomes: you run into 2 difficulties..."

exceptions exist with any practical category, the same will occur with whatever redefinition of gender you believe in

"However you biologically define gender, you at minimum need to accept that scientifically there are at least 3 genders."

men, women and what else? how would you define this third gender?

"That's a fact you keep ignoring or dismissing."

because its not a fact, having a very small penis, or a very large clit or being a hermaphrodite does not make someone a third gender

but lets say that i'm wrong, how would you define this third gender?

"You keep trying to bring up the species argument,"

i never at any point talked about species? 

"but how do you think society would care?  Suppose that someone out there really wanted to be a unicorn, what does it matter?  How do you think that would affect society?"

i have no problem with people pretending to be what they want to be, i've always said that, my problem is when other people are expected or forced to abide by their delusions

the same way that i don't think christians should be able to impose their religious doctrine on people despite me also thinking that they should be free to practice them

regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification? i never expected to see someone the justifications i've seen in these discussions and i've learned a lot, that wouldn't have happened if i'd just kept my mouth shut

"people have to respect what other people are called (holy cow, just like it is right now!")

if you are referring to pronouns, people assess which pronouns apply to people they interact with on a subconscious level... because we identify who is male and female (through obvious biological characteristics) on a subconscious level 

the proposal here is that despite all of this a person should just fight themselves internally to submit to this ideology and i would think that in a free society we wouldn't be going down this route

"people have to respect what gender someone wants to be (I know, it's totally different from what we have right now where we only respect what gender someone is.)"

why should they have to? in the process lying to themselves internally?

"If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and yet they still act like a regular person.  I don't consider that an issue. It doesn't change anything."

i wouldn't care as i've said, again i asked seeking clarification because again obviously if physical characteristics don't matter and its about what is in the mind then why couldn't someone identify as a unicorn?

"If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and act like they are a unicorn, that's only an issue because that person is going to have a lot of issues with life.  As long as they are being respectful of other people, I really don't care."

same here as long as i don't have to entertain their bullshit and i don't have more laws and restrictions placed on my freedom then have at it