| 0D0 said: I've already left the building.. so I'll only point out that saying that the Church is my racist grandfather is ok, no complex explanation needed, but saying that it did a lot of great stuff, now I need to write a white paper to explain how History is complex about that. |
I didn't write the line about the Church being a "racist grandfather" (though for what it's worth, I think you mistook that person's intent: it was not to call the Church racist, imo, but to compare its inability to change to a "racist grandfather"; to demonstrate how, unlike science which is often wrong and evolving/improving because of it, religion is stuck in its ways). But come on, anything having to do with history, with religion, with psychology -- with freaking people -- is going to be complex. At least if we want to get things right, it will be.
There are simple observations we can make along the way, of course, and there's nothing wrong with it. But to understand something as big as comparing the scientific approach against religious attitudes, or whether Christianity is/was "good or bad," etc., of course those things are hella complex. How could they not be?
Did the Church do good things? Certainly. Did it do bad things? Yes. That's no big hurdle for an atheist such as myself -- I have no interest in either attacking or defending the Church (let alone the Church of Late Antiquity, or the Middle Ages). But when you're on the side of supposedly divine inspiration or authority, etc., I think it becomes a slightly more pressing matter...
| 0D0 said: We can go on in an adult history discussion, I'm a history nerd here, but I know I'll be ganged up, since I'll be defending the Church. It's easier to defend the Nazis and deny the holocaust. |
By all means. If we do want to talk history, I'd ask that you not try to "defend the Church." Instead, defend the truth. If the truth is on the Church's side, so be it. I'm prepared to say that the Church has done some good in the world, and continues to do it (though I might make the case that a lot of this good comes from outside of Christianity itself); and of course there have been -- and continue to be -- wonderful Christians in the world. My best friend of nearly thirty-five years is, and likely will always be, a Christian. So we can and should look fairly at whatever blessings Christianity has brought.
Did Christianity end slavery in the Roman world? My sources say no. Tell me where I'm wrong about that and (as a good science or historian should) I will endeavor to consider your evidence as fairly as I can.
But at the same time, we have to look seriously at the other side of the ledger. We can start with some of the most famous episodes, if you'd like? Off the top of my head, there was the intolerance against "heretics"; the shuttering of the Academy; the campaigns against paganism; the regressing of science, economy and art sometimes called the Dark Ages; the Crusades; the Inquisition; the persecution of witches; the various schisms and wars between various Christian sects; and so forth.
And there is further the question of damage done to people who might slip through the cracks of the historical record, the "small folk," but who personally succumbed to the regular Christian promotion of guilt, asceticism, anti-intellectualism, etc. All of the "sinners in the hands of an angry God," who might have better enjoyed their brief lives on earth, but did not, in part because they were convinced that such enjoyment was somehow impious. The hermits and monks who sealed themselves away from the world, to avoid temptation. The victims of the Conquistadors who sought to convert indigenous peoples by taking their children from them, for forced education, and stamping out their cultural traditions. Those who enjoyed justice "by ordeal"; those who tithed and donated and bequeathed to religious authorities -- trying wretchedly to buy some prayer, or other means of escaping threatened torment -- so that the Church could continue to grow wealthier and wealthier, own more and more land, and the bishops live better and better amidst a general poverty.
There is a lot to answer for, I believe, so yes, I'll agree that it might be a difficult task to make the case that the Church was, on balance, a force for good. But if you'd like to make it, I'm willing to listen.
