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Shadow1980 said:
thismeintiel said:

1. Lol, wow, what stretch. You're honestly going to compare the stupid call of a grunt, in a scene that lasts 1 min, with the grand plan from the Order, in an event that is the main plot of the film and takes place over the course of 18 hrs? There's a reason people call the flaws of the OG nitpicks, while this is a huge gaping hole. There's also a reason Lucas was never so stupid to focus the plot of his film on a turtle VS turtle race.

2. Sorry, there's no more argument on this topic. This is not the new movie in a new franchise. We've seen ROTJ. We know how that ended. You don't get a pass for being a lazy writer who can't think up a couple simple scenes to explain it. 

Same thing, no more argument. If your character is the text book definition of a Mary Sue, they are a Mary Sue. And Luke is one? OK, now I know you have never watched the OT.

3. Entitled nerds? Wow, can only fight their opinion with insults? Those nerds deserve to be entitled. Without them there would only be one SW movie that would have failed at the box office. And there wouldn't have been a reason for these movies to exist. To think these movies only belong to Hollywood is the true feeling of entitlement. And those low ratings aren't just being left by diehard fans, either.

It's also pathetic that you think they should just eat whatever movie Disney gives them and continue to go to the theaters for repeat viewings, just cause it's hurting the box office. We are not servants to Hollywood. They put out a product. We don't like it, we let it be known and don't show up.

#1. The point is, the FO isn't somehow so grossly incompetent that they make the Empire seem like tactical/strategic geniuses. Even in popular and well-regarded works of fiction, including each era of Star Wars, incompetent villains are a common trope. People's nostalgia filters let them excuse such things in works they grew up loving, but the exact same thing in a newer work in the same series results in "RUINED FOREVER!" reactions. Nearly every complaint about the new trilogy can be easily lodged against the original trilogy.

#2. No, you wanted more backstory on the FO in the films. You're not entitled to it, and it's not important to the movie's story. It's explained in expanded universe materials. Even without that background material from the books, one can easily infer that the Empire was not completely crushed at Endor (because a galaxy-spanning military force would not simply cease functioning because they lost a single, albeit critical, battle as well as their leader; even in Legends the Thrawn Trilogy showed the Imperial Navy continued on after Endor), and that at least some remnants reorganized and created a new organization dedicated to the Empire's principle of galactic fascist terror. Neither TFA nor TLJ needed any exposition regarding the FO's origins to function as a film. Nor did it need any background on Snoke. Who he was wasn't important to the immediate story of TLJ. Just like Sidious in ROTJ, he merely serves as a plot device with minimal screen time, not a fleshed-out character.

Also, I've watched the OT movies at least 200 times each over the past 30+ years, so bite me. I'm not saying Luke is a Gary Stu, only that Rey is no more a Mary Sue than him. There isn't anything about her character that cannot be explained by examining her background. Again, fans exaggerate things, often to ridiculous levels.


#3. Stop making excuses for those people. Nobody taking an even-handed, objective critical approach to TLJ would give the film the lowest possible score. This is simply a bunch of irrationally angry fans venting and engaging in nonconstructive behavior. Some people are probably pissed because Rian Johnson didn't validate their pet theories. Others are probably still sore over the old EU material getting de-canonized into "Legends" and simply want to crap all over anything Star Wars made under the Disney umbrella. Others still (probably a small chunk) are just doing it for laughs, or for vague political reasons ("Something, something, SJWs. Something, something, feminists."), or are simply bandwagoning because it's now cool in some circles to hate Star Wars. But regardless of whatever reasons for the needless and undeserved review bombing of TLJ and general hate for it, this is not a half-star film. Anybody that says it is is clearly exaggerating. In fact, it goes beyond exaggeration, because it's not a bad film. It's not even a mediocre film. It's an an entertaining and beautifully-crafted film. I don't think it was perfect, but it was definitely enjoyable.

1. Again, you're doing a poor job of defending it. The Empire was never this grossly incompetent. Maybe individuals low on the totem pole, but never the Emperor. He would have never had a Star Destroyer following the Rebels for almost 18 hrs, just waiting for them to run out of gas (which in itself is a stupid  and mundane concept), as his master plan. That situation would have been handled in 10-15 mins.

2. Yea, sorry but I don't put up with lazy writing on this grand scale. If you're fine with it, whatever. But, it's more than entitlement that makes us demand answers. 

Mary Sue, through and through. She fits the description to a T. You may want to watch the videos d21lewis posted, as they point it out even clearer. Again, we demand writing that isn't so lazy as to include a Mary Sue. SW deserves better.

3. And just as bad are the people posting 9s and 10s, like it's a masterpiece. Like I said before, this isn't about pet theories or the EU (which didn't seem to hurt TFA's box office.) This is about us wanting something, anything interesting, but instead getting a big load of nothing. And boring main and side plots to top it off, filled with humor that didn't hit its mark. Of course, in the end, ratings mean Jack all, but money talks. They don't need to vote online when they can with their wallet.