You know I was gonna leave the forum for the night but I just can't let this post from Daisuke72 stand unchallenged.
This is gonna be good. Good God this is gonna be good.
| Daisuke72 said: So basically what I got from this thread was that Nintendo apparently has a master plan and is the only one who has good 1st party support, which is total bullshit by the way. Sony has the most diverse lineup of 1st party exclusives available, you can argue quality here but Sony most definitely has a great 1st party, and Microsoft has Halo, a series which will sell systems regardless. |
Understand this fact, Daisuke72.
Nintendo Is THE BEST Developer In The Videogame Business.
Commercially, Critically, Influentially. THE BEST. Not Good. THE BEST.
That is a FACT.
And if you don't BELIEVE that fact let me take you to VGChartz's Game Database.
The Top 10 games are ALL Nintendo.
1. Wii Sports (Wii), 2. Super Mario Bros. (NES), 3. Mario Kart Wii (Wii), 4. Wii Sports Resort (Wii),
5. Pokémon Red & Green [Blue] (GB), 6. Tetris (GB), 7. New Super Mario Bros. (DS), 8. Wii Play (Wii),
9. Duck Hunt (NES), 10. New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii)
Even if you take out the perennial pack-ins like Wii Sports, Super Mario Bros., Tetris & Duck Hunt, the Top 10 STILL is ALL Nintendo.
1. Mario Kart Wii (Wii), 2. Wii Sports Resort (Wii), 3. Pokémon Red & Green [Blue] (GB), 4. New Super Mario Bros. (DS),
5. Wii Play (Wii), 6. New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Wii), 7. Nintendogs (DS), 8. Pokémon Silver & Gold (GBC),
9. Wii Fit (Wii), 10. Mario Kart DS (DS)
The only game to come close to challenging this juggernaut of titles is Rockstar's legendary Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas for the PS2.
And that one comes in at only #16! Wii Fit Plus is ahead of it at #15! And after San Andreas is Super Mario World for SNES at #17!
A few non-Nintendo games start peeking through at this point like Microsoft's Kinect Adventures! for the 360 at #18, Rockstar's Grand Theft Auto: Vice City for the PS2 at #23, Activision/Infinity Ward's Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3 - 360 version - at #26, & Sony/Polyphony Digital's Gran Turismo A-Spec for the PS2 at #27.
But throughout that Top 50 Nintendo games litter the charts. Same goes for the Top 100.
And I find it ironic that despite the 360's reputation as a FPS box, the system had its greatest selling game when it mimicked Wii through Kinect Adventures!
That's just the Commercial side of the equation though.
We also know about Nintendo's Critical Acclaim throughout the industry.
Who can forget Famitsu's 40 out of 40 Platinum score for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time? The first EVER to get a perfect score from that magazine?
How can we miss Brain Age's Edinburgh Interactive Entertainment Festival 2006 Edge Award or the 10th Annual Interactive Achievement Award for Handheld Game of the Year in 2007 from the Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences?
What about Wii Fit & its winning of the Chrysler Design Innovation Award in 2008, Popular Mechanics' Breakthrough Award in 2007, Computer Entertainment Supplier's Association's Grand Award/Game of the Year & Award for Excellence at the 2008 Japan Game Awards?
What about Super Metroid's critical acclaim from Electronic Gaming Monthly who in 1994 named it Game of the Month that May, gave it an Editor's Choice Award then an award of Best Action Game of 1994 that same year, then called it Best Game of All Time in 2003? What about being placed on GamesRadar's & ScrewAttack's lists as THE #1 Best Super Nintendo game of All Time?
Did you forget about Super Smash Bros. Melee getting IGN's Readers' Choice Award for Best Game of the Year for 2001?
And if you want to talk about Nintendo's Influential power, we'll be here all day.
I'm not even gonna go into the hardware side of Nintendo which has CONSTANTLY & CONSISTENTLY shaped the way we play games for over 30 years.
The Donkey Kong Game & Watch handheld that led to the Control Pad (D-pad) & the overall shape of the Famicom/NES controller, a standard which we STILL use today; SNES' L & R buttons, diamond layout for the on-face action buttons, the action buttons' red-yellow-green-blue color-coding format; N64's analog stick & RUMBLE, GC's functional wireless by Wavebird, DS's touchscreen, Wii's motion control, to scratch the surface.
No I'm not gonna get into that. I'll just stick to the software side.
Donkey Kong & Super Mario Bros. How many platformers came out of this mold since these games came out? Do you think Mega Man would exist without them?
The Legend of Zelda. How many RPGs sprang up after this action-adventure title stirred it up on the Famicom Disk System & then the NES?
Super Mario Kart. Do you KNOW HOW many cartoony racers have been trying to touch the hem of this game's garment?
Star Fox. How much did this SNES game influence the development of polygonal 3D graphics? Aren't we still in the after effects this shift?
Super Mario 64. How many 3D platformers came out of THIS mold? How many contemporary side-scrollers tried to make the switch like Mario did? How many were successful at it?
Pokémon Red & Green [Blue]. What do you think led to all this Digimon, Bakugan stuff? Monster Rancher, Monster Hunter? What about its influence on the Tamagotchi craze? Do you think this game had a little bit to do with the Chao Adventure VMU game within Dreamcast's Sonic Adventure?
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Look at how much this game shaped action-adventure titles in 3D space.
Super Smash Bros. The game that changed the world of fighting games. I think its name is PlayStation All-Stars, I forget.
Mario Party. How many games have tried to match this multiplayer minigame madness since it first debuted?
Metroid Prime. How much did this game impact the look & feel of later first-person shooters?
WarioWare, Inc. The game that taught everybody that fun could be had in 5 seconds & could be done with simple graphics.
Nintendogs. All those pet sims...
Brain Age. Do you KNOW what this game set off?
New Super Mario Bros. The return to 2D in the midst of the Only-3D mentality.
Wii Sports. 'Nuff said.
Wii Play. 'Nuff said. (secret return of The Zapper & 'Light Gun' games)
Wii Fit. 'Nuff said. (Zumba, Jenny McCarthy, & the whole rebirth of exergaming)
This is not only my opinion that they are THE BEST. It is a documentable FACT that they are THE BEST.
And have been for over 30 years.
Sony might have the MOST 1st party studios in its portfolio but they don't have the BEST 1st party & the sales charts, critical acclaim, industrial influence reflect that.
DAIRANTOU!
PlayStation don't have the All-Star. Nintendo has the All-Star.
They're the Bros. that make the Smash Hits.
| Daisuke72 said: Also, arguing about graphics not mattering anymore and PS4 and Xbone being overpowered is nonsense. PC's have been doing this for almost three years, the consoles will match a high end PC from years ago, you honestly expect the Wii U to be powerful enough up to the years, say 2017 with only 2GB of RAM? |
RAM? Seriously? You're talking about RAM?
Um, when you go to a retail store like say Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, & such, where are the console games located? Where are the PC games located?
What's a good ratio you can give for how many console games on shelves there are to PC games on shelves?
Console games usually have security measures on them, don't they? Hidden behind a door of plexiglass that has to be unlocked or a title card being placed on a shelf to be turned in at register for game behind the desk, right?
PC games are usually left wide open without all of that runaround, aren't they?
Console games out number PC games at about 10 to 1, 20 to 1, or 50 to 1, most times don't they?
I know for sure Gamestop is wall-to-wall with console games while the PC games are on one little section or a little stand in the middle of the store.
Nintendo was responsible for creating that reality all the way back in the 1980s.
Their World of Nintendo displays in stores raised the value of console games in the minds of the general public.
The craze for their products led to inevitable theft & over the years retailers have put up security measures to secure their sales.
Nintendo's competition helped Nintendo elevate console games over PC games further because all of them are striving for a piece of Nintendo's pie trying to stand as the King of Consoles (which they aren't. Nintendo is).
All this tech tech tech talk comes from the world of PC developers.
They have been shaken by Nintendo's emergence in this industry & still haven't come to grips with it YET!
They want to shape consoles in PC's image as revenge for losing their market to the consoles.
Nintendo uses tech but you never hear them get so caught up in the details of the components of the machine.
They're always talking about the experience they hope their games will convey THROUGH that machine.
The Big Picture.
PC guys love to pore over all the technical hardware & software intricacies.
All that boring engineer talk that goes right over most people's heads.
That stuff needs to be known in the production of the machines but they put covers over the guts for a reason.
You're not selling to engineers. You're selling to regular people. People who are NOT knowledgeable about all this stuff & didn't spend years training in it.
It's interesting to know the details behind what makes the magic on a console but that's the key word: MAGIC.
MAGIC & SCIENCE are basically the same word: Knowledge.
What's really the difference between a sage & a mage?
Jesus & the gifts of the Magis, The Three Wise Men.
Wise, Wize, Wiz, Wizard, Wise-ard. Wizdom, Wisdom.
Wisdom. To be Conscient of what's right & what's wrong.
Con-Scient. Con-Science. With-Science. Wit Science. In CONjunction WITH Science. CONjoined to Science.
Conscientious. Conscientiousness. Con-Sense. With Sense. Wit Sense. Wizense. Wisen.
The Magician KNOWS. The Scientist KNOWS.
The only difference between the 2 is that the magician doesn't tell you all the steps wanting you to be surprised at the end.
The scientist takes all the surprise out breaking down each & every step from the beginning.
We need both of them but when presenting a surprise you don't blab all the secrets.
You remember how Iwata loves saying Nintendo is about giving you meaningful surprises.
In this videogaming enterprise, you ruin the prize when you dig too much around the package (just like Christmas presents).
This all lines up with Nintendo's roots as a playing card company. Card tricks are a magician's go-to routine after all.
Wii had less RAM than both the XBox 360 & PlayStation 3. It did not hurt it in the least.
Have you forgotten the quote I have been posting all throughout this thread?
Satoru Iwata, E3 2004: "The time when horsepower alone made an important difference is over."
Sony & Microsoft are about to hit a wall chasing this rabbit called 100% photorealism. Graphics are finished & the horsepower pushed to deliver them is unnecessary overkill.
You using your phone to make your point underlines how silly it is to worry about some RAM when so many people are playing games on their phones now.
Don't look now but the blocky N64-looking Minecraft XBox 360 Edition has already sold 8 million in a combination of physical & digital sales.
Wii U specs are more than fine. They will allow devs to deliver those kinds of real-like games at cheaper budgets.
| Daisuke72 said: Also let's not forget the marketing for the Wii U is downright terrible, it's almost as bad the Vita's. You guys keep bringing up the Vita and comparing it to the PS4 which is funny considering that none of my real life friend didn't know the Vita even existed until they found my PSP and I brought it up, and yet we all pre-ordered a PS4. Marketing goes a long way, if the Vita was called PSP 2 and the Wii U was called Wii 2 or something to that effect, sales for both would be better than they are currently. Problem is, I don't know a single person in real life who owns a Wii U, nor do I know someone who's still playing their Wii. Judging by the OP, it's almost like you forgot that Nintendo's 1st party didn't sell 100M Wii's. |
Oh we can agree about Wii U's marketing but we cannot agree on Nintendo calling it Wii 2 or Nintendo's 1st party not selling 100 million Wiis (don't look on VGChartz.com's homepage. Wii's at 99.9 million worldwide at the time of this writing) or that motion control is a mere gimmick.
Nintendo can do better job with marketing for sure & we see The Regginator going on late night TV himself to do just that.
But what you don't understand is that Wii U will get most of its sales from word-of-mouth which is built right in to the system. Organically.
It's just a matter of that first spark. And that spark may come from the 3DS also a word-of-mouth type of system.
You will see the breakthrough soon, Daisuke72, & your mind will be blown by how much Nintendo "turned this around".
And yes people still play their Wiis. Why wouldn't they? They bought it, they enjoy it, & it's fun. I'm one of them.
And if Nintendo's 1st party didn't sell 100 million Wiis then who did? Remember, they had virtually no 3rd party with them this gen, remember?
Ubisoft hung in there with them along with a handful of others but Nintendo damn near sold this system all by themselves. Who made Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit, Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Mario Kart Wii, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, Super Mario Galaxy 1 & 2?
If motion control's a gimmick then everything's a gimmick including HD.
Motion control by Wiimote changed the entire industry. There would be no Kinect, no Move, & no attempt from Microsoft & Sony to make their systems more friendly to the audience Wii cultivated.
Remember XBox 360 changed their entire menu interface to follow in Wii's footsteps. From the Dashboard's Blades to this New XBox Experience with the Avatars.
PlayStation 3 promoted Sackboy from LittleBigPlanet in mascot form.
Wii never went HD with all the first-person shooters.
Motion is the new standard. That's why XBox One promotes the new Kinect first & foremost & PS4 still packs in Move as well as this EyeToy/PlayStation Eye/Kinect-ish thing called the PlayStation Camera.
Looks like HD was the real gimmick since they're still pushing that 'more power, more graphics' hardware argument despite that argument being thoroughly defeated last go around by a weaker SD system called Wii.
| Daisuke72 said:
Look at the GC and N64 sales, if the Nintendo 1st party was that good, with cheaper price points and more powerful hardware, why did they fail? Because the lack of 3rd party support, re-hashed IP's, and nothing much outside their fanbase. Despite the GBA selling a shit-ton of handhelds.
Also regarding budgets, Uncharted 2 was made with a 22M budget, GoW was made with 10M. Budgets by 1st party studios of MS/Sony are pretty damn good considering the sales. 3rd party budgets are the ones that're more staggering, which is why you mentioning budgets pretty funny since MS/Sony have done well managing their budgets. Oh, and guess what? The Wii U is rendering HD now, the budgets for them are higher than ever, oh and since porting is easy this time around thanks to the architecture and established game engines, budgets for games are actually on pace to be lower than last gen's. So that argument is also flawed, considering only SE is bleeding money thanks to budgeting issues at the moment. |
We're still talking about these N64 games to this day.
They have become legendary despite the system that played them not selling as many as the PlayStation did.
Pricey cartridges & politics is what kept the N64 from seeing the PS1.
Cartridges loaded faster & were more durable but on average didn't hold all of the multimedia information like movies & music without making a special cartridge to do it on—which also added cost.
Discs had those annoying loading times & were more fragile to store but held all of the multimedia information easily on disc right out of the box.
Sony was giving you $40 to $50 discs while Nintendo was giving you $60 to $70 cartridges.
Paying more for a game that gave you less.
Then there's the politics. The 3rd party made a united stand against Nintendo in the 5th gen using Sony as their political megaphone.
And now that volume was back in vogue Nintendo didn't have enough teams to constantly supply games for the system.
The N64 couldn't get that diversity in their library that the SNES & NES enjoyed.
This is what forced them to go inside of themselves & start pushing their hometown favorites more & more.
N64 had little to no RPGs, here comes Paper Mario. N64 had little to no priority sports games, here comes Mario Golf & Mario Tennis.
N64 had little to no fighting games, here comes Super Smash Bros.
N64 need more games to keep money in the coffers, here comes Mario Party.
Whatever Nintendo wasn't able to do, Rareware stepped in with Goldeneye 007, Blast Corps, Banjo-Kazooie, Jet Force Gemini & Perfect Dark.
Each & every one of these games Nintendo made were well received & their series are enjoyed to this day.
They sold greatly & profited Nintendo well too.
The Gamecube's failures were an extension of what happened with the N64 with new difficulties.
More politics, no Rare, & now image problems is what kept GC away from PS2.
Plus & most importantly an incomplete implementation of what they would perfect in the system following.
3rd party largely left Nintendo by themselves again even though a few like Capcom decided to throw Nintendo a couple of good bones (Resident Evil 1-4, Viewtiful Joe, Killer7, Okami).
They had to go internal again which is why we had 4 Mario Parties on that system & so many Mario Sports games (which were all great by the way).
But this time they had no Rare to back them up so they were stranded.
Then you had the media backlash about Gamecube being a "kiddie console" which scared away devs & customers.
The system was excellent. Cheap, powerful enough to deliver whatever game a dev can dream, hidden 3D-viewing capabilities, small, light, low on power consumption, tough & durable.
It was like Imperfect Cell from DBZ. Mighty but missing that one extra step that would make him complete.
Gamecube's controller despite its button size differentials was never going to be simple enough to get mass audience as complex as games had become.
Nice try but you need a whole new controller approach which simplifies all of this new complexity.
Small size was step in right direction but you need to get smaller than a squarish cube.
Never anything wrong with being a favorite of kids (in fact this is the MOST necessary audience of a console) but you need to reaffirm your motto as being for everybody. The roots go back to the FAMILY Computer & beyond.
They came up with a new system that used the Gamecube at its core. That system started The Revolution.
They had a whole new controller that could take all of gaming's complexity & make it simple.
They chopped that small Cube into thirds, took one of those thirds to make the smallest compact influential system around.
They UNDERLINED the FAMILY in Famicom & said Wii.
Now Cell was Perfect.
It was Gamecube's Revenge & you didn't insult it by calling it a Duct-Taped Gamecube because that so-called last-gen system trounced everything the HD Twins could put out.
Now with the trials suffered under The Fun Machine, the N64, & GC, going internal not only made them profitable but made them near-invincible.
Their games were cheaper unlike the N64 & they perfected what they were trying to achieve with GC.
They could always keep their systems afloat by themselves. Now they can ride on tidal waves.
That's not enough for them though. They have proven they can do it alone.
But they want to restore what was lost with the emergence of the PlayStation.
The audience divide is causing havok with the health of the game business.
Do they make mistakes? Doggone right they do!
That's why they had to correct game pricing from N64. That's why they had to take the Gamecube to its natural conclusion as Wii.
And now they're trying to correct their flaw in not breaking the 3rd party standoff fast enough through Wii U.
Though I think they made mistakes in how they first went about it.
I personally think it was a serious mistake ending the WiiConnect24 service. They could have run Wii & Wii U concurrently & crossed over.
It was a mistake not reading over the fine print in the Nintendo-Sony deal which led to Sony's PlayStation.
Oh & we all know about the rushed to market Virtual Boy.
Be lucky they make mistakes or nobody would ever be able to enter this business.
And last thing. About your game budget argument.
Remember that Sony's & Microsoft's platforms are propped up by the 3rd parties not the 1st parties.
Sony & ESPECIALLY Microsoft don't factor in since their games don't shoulder their systems.
So it is VERY IMPORTANT about this 3rd party game budget thing because if they fall apart where are Sony & certainly Microsoft gonna get the bulk of their games?
More details take more people or at least the same people doing more work. Moneyflush or Burnout either way.
I don't buy that line about 3rd party game budgets getting lower in the 8th gen.
I see both of them hitting a wall & Nintendo picking up the pieces.
It'll come together for you soon enough.
John Lucas
Words from the Official VGChartz Idiot
WE ARE THE NATION...OF DOMINATION!
