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o_O.Q said:
sundin13 said:

Quite the opposite actually. There very much is a wider problem with how "this issue" is presented. You and I just disagree on what that problem is.

you mean you disagree with my refusal to concede that a man becomes a woman if he identifies as one?

See: Last 500 conversations about this exact topic



sundin13 said:
o_O.Q said:

you mean you disagree with my refusal to concede that a man becomes a woman if he identifies as one?

See: Last 500 conversations about this exact topic

I hold the position I do because from where I stand no rational argument has so far been made against it, the best one so far was that(and i'm paraphrasing) men and women are too complicated to be distinguished from each other



o_O.Q said:
sundin13 said:

See: Last 500 conversations about this exact topic

I hold the position I do because from where I stand no rational argument has so far been made against it, the best one so far was that(and i'm paraphrasing) men and women are too complicated to be distinguished from each other

neat.



o_O.Q said:

"Even if that did make any logical sense"

trust me you aren't the only one having difficulty seeing logical consistency

"Being transgender is the opposite of cool.  It's an immense amount of stress, because a lot of people hate people for being transgendered."

and a lot of people see them as validation for their delusional ideas about equality so in some circles they are venerated

"Even still the latter doesn't follow from the former."

how does it not? if something(in this case gender) is constructed out of our social makeup then how does it not follow?

"Gender is a social construct, that doesn't mean a change in the perception of gender would cause people to change their own gender."

if gender is socially constructed then how could our collective perceptions on gender and obviously as a result our interactions also changing not have an impact?

are trying to argue that our perceptions do not impact significantly on the social makeup of a society?

"You still seem to think that people are choosing to be transgender.  No one is doing that."

how do you explain the people who detransition?

>how does it not? if something(in this case gender) is constructed out of our social makeup then how does it not follow?

Because gender and transitioning are different things.  

Just because gender is social, doesn't mean that transitioning could be trendy.

>how do you explain the people who detransition?

Because there's a difference between psychological and physical (which can include biological, legal) impressions of gender.  

Someone who was born a man can have gender dysphoria and still put on paperwork that they're male.

The point I was making, is no one is choosing to have gender dysphoria, and people without gender dysphoria are not transitioning.  

which ones?

Not relevant.  



the-pi-guy said:

>how does it not? if something(in this case gender) is constructed out of our social makeup then how does it not follow?

Because gender and transitioning are different things.  

Just because gender is social, doesn't mean that transitioning could be trendy.

>how do you explain the people who detransition?

Because there's a difference between psychological and physical (which can include biological, legal) impressions of gender.  

Someone who was born a man can have gender dysphoria and still put on paperwork that they're male.

The point I was making, is no one is choosing to have gender dysphoria, and people without gender dysphoria are not transitioning. 

To try to clarify a bit:

-Gender is a social construct

-Identity is not

Basically what that means is that which behaviors, hobbies, norms etc are considered "male" and which are "female" are societally determined, however, individuals don't typically choose what they like and what makes them happy. What society does is put those things that an individual likes into pink or blue boxes. For example, dresses being feminine is a social construct, however, an individual feeling more (psychologically) comfortable in a dress than in "male clothes", is not chosen and is not a social construct. The convergence between personal truth and societal pressures is largely where dysphoria resides. As such, an individual with a penis would not be pressured into identifying any differently, because their identity is not a choice. Where societal pressures do come in is in aiding to create the dysphoria between identity and "sex".

Further, I do want to make the comment that no all transgendered individuals necessarily have gender dysphoria. It is the identity which defines transgendered individuals, not whatever pain they may or may not suffer through that identity.

Note: I am not transgendered and I am not an expert on such things, so if anyone is transgendered or knows more about the subject than me, I encourage you to correct me if I said anything incorrect.



I believe nobody is born anything. There is no such thing as a woman born in a man's body. Adults become who they are mainly through their environment gowning up. If the mother is putting ideas on the child of being a female that together with other environmental factors may lead this child to believe so, just how if he is told he is male and should act like a male then he will do so. If he is not pushed either way by the parents(or pushed both ways) then the child will naturally take a stance depending on other environmental factors such as friends, tv shows, school environment, things he has seen or heard etc.....



omarct said:
I believe nobody is born anything. There is no such thing as a woman born in a man's body. Adults become who they are mainly through their environment gowning up. If the mother is putting ideas on the child of being a female that together with other environmental factors may lead this child to believe so, just how if he is told he is male and should act like a male then he will do so. If he is not pushed either way by the parents(or pushed both ways) then the child will naturally take a stance depending on other environmental factors such as friends, tv shows, school environment, things he has seen or heard etc.....

One of the main ways to determine whether genetics play a role in determining something is through the use of twin studies. What these studies do is compare identical twins and fraternal twins. If we consistently see a trait being shared more in identical twins than in fraternal twins, that implies that the trait is influenced strongly by genetics.

In relation to transgender identity, twin studies have shown quite clearly that concordant identity is far more likely in identical twins than fraternal twins.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0021982

"The responses of our twins relative to their rearing, along with our findings regarding some of their experiences during childhood and adolescence show their identity was much more influenced by their genetics than their rearing."

To assert that "nobody is born anything" is incredibly ignorant to the important part that genetics play in development and it denies the existing science which clearly shows this assertion to be false for many, many factors including gender identity. The above is just one small piece of the evidence that individuals are not solely determined by environment.



I figured the story was made up, but I still don't agree with transitioning children. I haven't seen any evidence that transitioning people leads them to leading a happier life. I've looked up the studies and they say that they can't get a proper study off because the patients keep disappearing off the face of the earth. My assumption is suicide, but who knows.

And unlike with homosexuals, I don't believe they've proven anything genetic for this. This could simply be the kid's fascination with woman's clothing.

I personally think the father in this case is despicable if he was lying about the facts to try and push his cause. However, I also think an attempt to return the kid to normalcy should also be made since the alternative is a horrible life. And it's not because of bullies either. I'm open to evolving my point of view, but without evidence, I don't see why such drastic measures are required.



DarkD said:
I figured the story was made up, but I still don't agree with transitioning children. I haven't seen any evidence that transitioning people leads them to leading a happier life. I've looked up the studies and they say that they can't get a proper study off because the patients keep disappearing off the face of the earth. My assumption is suicide, but who knows.

And unlike with homosexuals, I don't believe they've proven anything genetic for this. This could simply be the kid's fascination with woman's clothing.

I personally think the father in this case is despicable if he was lying about the facts to try and push his cause. However, I also think an attempt to return the kid to normalcy should also be made since the alternative is a horrible life. And it's not because of bullies either. I'm open to evolving my point of view, but without evidence, I don't see why such drastic measures are required.

In regards to your first point about the benefits of transitioning, here ya go:

https://sdlab.fas.harvard.edu/files/sdlab/files/durwood_2017_jaacap.pdf

In regards to your second point about genetic factors, see my post above.



DarkD said:
I figured the story was made up, but I still don't agree with transitioning children. I haven't seen any evidence that transitioning people leads them to leading a happier life. I've looked up the studies and they say that they can't get a proper study off because the patients keep disappearing off the face of the earth. My assumption is suicide, but who knows.

And unlike with homosexuals, I don't believe they've proven anything genetic for this. This could simply be the kid's fascination with woman's clothing.

I personally think the father in this case is despicable if he was lying about the facts to try and push his cause. However, I also think an attempt to return the kid to normalcy should also be made since the alternative is a horrible life. And it's not because of bullies either. I'm open to evolving my point of view, but without evidence, I don't see why such drastic measures are required.

" I haven't seen any evidence that transitioning people leads them to leading a happier life."

I don't think that's the relevant issue here - religious people are statistically more likely to be happier than atheists, but despite that atheists think that what they consider to be delusion should not have an influence beyond those who willingly consent to be subjugated to it