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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Alternate history: N64 goes with CDs instead of cartridges

 

What do you think would've been the outcome?

N64 would've won the gen 40 62.50%
 
PS1 still would've won 24 37.50%
 
Total:64
JRPGfan on 14 August 2019
Hynad said:
OTBWY said:

Not entirely true. In fact, Square was working with Sony before there was any idea of FFVII. Secret of Mana was supposed to come out for the SNES-CD addon, but due to reason known, the game had to be cut significantly to go on a regular SNES cartridge. There are sources that even say that this very experience is one of the if not the main reason why Square went along with Sony, after they broke off and made their own competing console. Square continued with Nintendo's SNES for a while because.. well.. it was the best selling console in Japan by far. 

This was not just a format change that made Square switch, but a more business and cultural one. Both of them got fairly close as companies and Square didn't release any game (other than FF) for the N64. 

I’m sorry?

Hironobu Sakaguchi

Producer and executive vice president, Square Japan; Chairman and chief executive officer, Square USA

Of course, back then I wasn’t the president of Square. There was a management level above me, and I talked with them to make the decision. But PlayStation games being on CDs was the biggest factor. If you wanted to make a 3D action game on a Nintendo 64 cartridge with that limited space, you could do it. But I wanted to create a 3D role-playing game. It was very clear in my head what I wanted to make, but that would have been difficult on Nintendo’s hardware. …The biggest problem was, of course, memory. Based on our calculations there was no way it could all fit on a ROM cartridge. So our main reason for choosing the PlayStation was really just because it was the only console which would allow us to use CD-ROM media.

Shinichiro Kajitani

Vice president, Square USA

At that time, Square was really close to Nintendo — we were basically like a second party for them. So when their new system was in development, we gave them lots of advice, like, “You’re going to need a CD-ROM drive for it,” “You don’t have enough bandwidth to do what we’re trying to do,” and, “With what you have now, we’re not going to be able to make an RPG.” We gave them lots of advice. But [Nintendo president] Yamauchi-san at Nintendo basically refused to listen to any of it. And that’s when Sakaguchi-san and the management team at Square decided, “OK, we’re going to go with Sony now.”

https://gonintendo.com/stories/289651-square-enix-opens-up-about-trying-to-make-final-fantasy-vii-for-n

^ whats crazy is that Nintendo hasnt changed.

They still design hardware, around their own wants and needs, and basically ignore 3rd party input (on hardware).



DonFerrari on 14 August 2019
Hynad said:
OTBWY said:

Not entirely true. In fact, Square was working with Sony before there was any idea of FFVII. Secret of Mana was supposed to come out for the SNES-CD addon, but due to reason known, the game had to be cut significantly to go on a regular SNES cartridge. There are sources that even say that this very experience is one of the if not the main reason why Square went along with Sony, after they broke off and made their own competing console. Square continued with Nintendo's SNES for a while because.. well.. it was the best selling console in Japan by far. 

This was not just a format change that made Square switch, but a more business and cultural one. Both of them got fairly close as companies and Square didn't release any game (other than FF) for the N64. 

I’m sorry?

Hironobu Sakaguchi

Producer and executive vice president, Square Japan; Chairman and chief executive officer, Square USA

Of course, back then I wasn’t the president of Square. There was a management level above me, and I talked with them to make the decision. But PlayStation games being on CDs was the biggest factor. If you wanted to make a 3D action game on a Nintendo 64 cartridge with that limited space, you could do it. But I wanted to create a 3D role-playing game. It was very clear in my head what I wanted to make, but that would have been difficult on Nintendo’s hardware. …The biggest problem was, of course, memory. Based on our calculations there was no way it could all fit on a ROM cartridge. So our main reason for choosing the PlayStation was really just because it was the only console which would allow us to use CD-ROM media.

Shinichiro Kajitani

Vice president, Square USA

At that time, Square was really close to Nintendo — we were basically like a second party for them. So when their new system was in development, we gave them lots of advice, like, “You’re going to need a CD-ROM drive for it,” “You don’t have enough bandwidth to do what we’re trying to do,” and, “With what you have now, we’re not going to be able to make an RPG.” We gave them lots of advice. But [Nintendo president] Yamauchi-san at Nintendo basically refused to listen to any of it. And that’s when Sakaguchi-san and the management team at Square decided, “OK, we’re going to go with Sony now.”

https://gonintendo.com/stories/289651-square-enix-opens-up-about-trying-to-make-final-fantasy-vii-for-n

What you mention about the SNES CD add-on most likely contributed, considering they were having the same struggle making the games they wanted for Nintendo’s hardware, but there is no denying FF VII was the tipping point. 

You can make conjectures based on what happened with Mana and the SNES-CD, but Sakaguchi and co have been candid about the reasons from the very beginning and their story has always remained the same throughout the years

I just want to double on the "main factor", but not the only one. Like they said it would be hard to do it, but seems like there were other lesser reasons to change.

And considering Sony paid money for Tomb Raider to be on its platform it is likely that if they really wanted FF VII they would have paid for it as well. And considering Nintendo arrogance I don't think they would have stepped in with more money. I doubt that for even a second Nintendo though they were in any risk.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

kopstudent89 on 14 August 2019
KungKras said:
Nintendo would have won. But it would come at the price of the open worlds in Super Mario 64 and Zelda OoT, which would have been impossible without the fast access speed of cartridges.

That's a pretty fair point, although I think Nintendo would've adapted but who knows what kind of games those would've been. 

This video explains some of the different game design choices based on the limitations of their respective hardware:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhKX_i4BlGs

I doubt Ocarina would've been the same game, having to reuse so many assets and going to the same locations again to complete different dungeons. That design choice was out of necessity rather than choice. 

That being said, just the overall draw of Nintendo would've been too appealing for most gamers



Chrkeller on 14 August 2019

FFVII was important, but I still think pricing was the biggest problem. ps1 was $40 games, N64 quite often $80. That was a killer.



OTBWY on 14 August 2019
Hynad said:
OTBWY said:

Not entirely true. In fact, Square was working with Sony before there was any idea of FFVII. Secret of Mana was supposed to come out for the SNES-CD addon, but due to reason known, the game had to be cut significantly to go on a regular SNES cartridge. There are sources that even say that this very experience is one of the if not the main reason why Square went along with Sony, after they broke off and made their own competing console. Square continued with Nintendo's SNES for a while because.. well.. it was the best selling console in Japan by far. 

This was not just a format change that made Square switch, but a more business and cultural one. Both of them got fairly close as companies and Square didn't release any game (other than FF) for the N64. 

I’m sorry?

Hironobu Sakaguchi

Producer and executive vice president, Square Japan; Chairman and chief executive officer, Square USA

Of course, back then I wasn’t the president of Square. There was a management level above me, and I talked with them to make the decision. But PlayStation games being on CDs was the biggest factor. If you wanted to make a 3D action game on a Nintendo 64 cartridge with that limited space, you could do it. But I wanted to create a 3D role-playing game. It was very clear in my head what I wanted to make, but that would have been difficult on Nintendo’s hardware. …The biggest problem was, of course, memory. Based on our calculations there was no way it could all fit on a ROM cartridge. So our main reason for choosing the PlayStation was really just because it was the only console which would allow us to use CD-ROM media.

Shinichiro Kajitani

Vice president, Square USA

At that time, Square was really close to Nintendo — we were basically like a second party for them. So when their new system was in development, we gave them lots of advice, like, “You’re going to need a CD-ROM drive for it,” “You don’t have enough bandwidth to do what we’re trying to do,” and, “With what you have now, we’re not going to be able to make an RPG.” We gave them lots of advice. But [Nintendo president] Yamauchi-san at Nintendo basically refused to listen to any of it. And that’s when Sakaguchi-san and the management team at Square decided, “OK, we’re going to go with Sony now.”

https://gonintendo.com/stories/289651-square-enix-opens-up-about-trying-to-make-final-fantasy-vii-for-n

What you mention about the SNES CD add-on most likely contributed, considering they were having the same struggle making the games they wanted for Nintendo’s hardware, but there is no denying FF VII was the tipping point. 

You can make conjectures based on what happened with Mana and the SNES-CD, but Sakaguchi and co have been candid about the reasons from the very beginning and their story has always remained the same throughout the years

You're not reading. The game itself was not the tipping point as you put it, the format was. IE: The CD format that they previously worked with Sony on. This is the sole reason their relationship started (as Sony continued to woo Square) and culminated with the breakaway when Sony released their console and Nintendo came with the N64.

The reasoning has changed over many years, ergo, I don't completely trust anything coming from Sakaguchi at that. It has to do with various reasons, for example not wanting to step on certain toes. To be even more clear why I think this:

"It wasn’t really “officially” in development for the Nintendo 64. It was more like we were experimenting with the hardware." - Yoshinori Kitase

"Anyway, we made a 2,000-count polygon version of Behemoth for the Nintendo 64, but when we rendered and animated it, the framerate was way too low. To properly display Behemoth with that technology, we needed 2,000 polygons, but it was a little too much for the hardware. That was part of the problem with choosing Nintendo."- Yoshinori Kitase

That very same source comes from the Polygon article, which I recommend. Anyway, with this they allude to the reason being power not being the way they wanted, and that's why the game didn't come. So stories clearly vary. However, you have to think that not a single game came from Square, so there was more to it than just a format decision, it was clear than Square grew close to Sony and the Playstation team, hence their clear break. it doesn't however change the fact of what started way sooner.

Either way, putting that aside, I don't even believe FFVII tipped the scale in favour of the PS1 that much, it was just as many here have said already. The PS1 had more games. That third party support was the key factor. I don't think Square staying with N64 would have changed that. In fact, it would have probably decreased their output significantly, so the impact wouldn't be that much more. The only thing I could see happening in that scenario, was that the N64 would have been more popular in Japan, definitely not lagging behind the Saturn as it did.



TheLegendaryWolf on 14 August 2019

The PS1 wouldn't have been top dog, I see it as the XB360vsPS3 situation where sales number would be neck and neck with one side just barely beating out the other.



OTBWY on 14 August 2019
JRPGfan said:
Hynad said:

I’m sorry?

Hironobu Sakaguchi

Producer and executive vice president, Square Japan; Chairman and chief executive officer, Square USA

Of course, back then I wasn’t the president of Square. There was a management level above me, and I talked with them to make the decision. But PlayStation games being on CDs was the biggest factor. If you wanted to make a 3D action game on a Nintendo 64 cartridge with that limited space, you could do it. But I wanted to create a 3D role-playing game. It was very clear in my head what I wanted to make, but that would have been difficult on Nintendo’s hardware. …The biggest problem was, of course, memory. Based on our calculations there was no way it could all fit on a ROM cartridge. So our main reason for choosing the PlayStation was really just because it was the only console which would allow us to use CD-ROM media.

Shinichiro Kajitani

Vice president, Square USA

At that time, Square was really close to Nintendo — we were basically like a second party for them. So when their new system was in development, we gave them lots of advice, like, “You’re going to need a CD-ROM drive for it,” “You don’t have enough bandwidth to do what we’re trying to do,” and, “With what you have now, we’re not going to be able to make an RPG.” We gave them lots of advice. But [Nintendo president] Yamauchi-san at Nintendo basically refused to listen to any of it. And that’s when Sakaguchi-san and the management team at Square decided, “OK, we’re going to go with Sony now.”

https://gonintendo.com/stories/289651-square-enix-opens-up-about-trying-to-make-final-fantasy-vii-for-n

^ whats crazy is that Nintendo hasnt changed.

They still design hardware, around their own wants and needs, and basically ignore 3rd party input (on hardware).

Nintendo is not crazy for trying to innovate when it comes to hardware. Otherwise all would be low end PC boxes, the industry would stagnate. Sony and MS took lessons from Nintendo and still continue to do so. Third party support doesn't always depend on hardware either, many examples of that. Big installbases are a big reason for more support too.



RaptorChrist on 14 August 2019

Didn't the PS1 come into existence because Nintendo refused to go the disk route? Had they went with disks, they likely would have partnered with Sony and there wouldn't have been a PS1 (has been my understanding).



OTBWY on 14 August 2019
RaptorChrist said:
Didn't the PS1 come into existence because Nintendo refused to go the disk route? Had they went with disks, they likely would have partnered with Sony and there wouldn't have been a PS1 (has been my understanding).

The PS1 came into existence because of the CD add-on Sony worked on for the Super Nintendo was under a contract that meant that Sony would be making all the profits out of it and have control of licensing. Nintendo didn't want to do that, so they broke off. With Nintendo going with Philips for another attempt at this CD add-on, it added fuel to the fire and Sony further developed what they had into the PS1. 



h2ohno on 14 August 2019
JRPGfan said:
Hynad said:

I’m sorry?

Hironobu Sakaguchi

Producer and executive vice president, Square Japan; Chairman and chief executive officer, Square USA

Of course, back then I wasn’t the president of Square. There was a management level above me, and I talked with them to make the decision. But PlayStation games being on CDs was the biggest factor. If you wanted to make a 3D action game on a Nintendo 64 cartridge with that limited space, you could do it. But I wanted to create a 3D role-playing game. It was very clear in my head what I wanted to make, but that would have been difficult on Nintendo’s hardware. …The biggest problem was, of course, memory. Based on our calculations there was no way it could all fit on a ROM cartridge. So our main reason for choosing the PlayStation was really just because it was the only console which would allow us to use CD-ROM media.

Shinichiro Kajitani

Vice president, Square USA

At that time, Square was really close to Nintendo — we were basically like a second party for them. So when their new system was in development, we gave them lots of advice, like, “You’re going to need a CD-ROM drive for it,” “You don’t have enough bandwidth to do what we’re trying to do,” and, “With what you have now, we’re not going to be able to make an RPG.” We gave them lots of advice. But [Nintendo president] Yamauchi-san at Nintendo basically refused to listen to any of it. And that’s when Sakaguchi-san and the management team at Square decided, “OK, we’re going to go with Sony now.”

https://gonintendo.com/stories/289651-square-enix-opens-up-about-trying-to-make-final-fantasy-vii-for-n

^ whats crazy is that Nintendo hasnt changed.

They still design hardware, around their own wants and needs, and basically ignore 3rd party input (on hardware).

The Switch's RAM profile is based on what Capcom asked for.