By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - The Stagnant Working Class

NightlyPoe said:
Mnementh said:

You completely miss the point again and again.

I completely get the point.  You, and pretty much everyone here, would like to make a bigger argument than the one presented.

It's taking on a myth about capitalism.  Is it not true that the "stagnant middle class" is a common complaint and blamed on capitalism and income inequality?  If it is, then the people who made the video would be correct in trying to point out how silly that complaint is.

To restate, this is a DEFENSIVE video.  Yeah, it takes a few pot shots at socialists at the very end, but it doesn't say that things are worse in Norway than 100 years ago.  It's saying that it's not worse under our system as it is commonly claimed.

No, it is not true. No one with common sense is blaming capitalism for stagnant middle class and for income inequality. It is, rather, a certain reckless type of Capitalism that does not allow for the developing of certain institutions (like welfare systems, etc.) that is the cause. This is why the video is dumb. It is creating a simplified straw man argument and attacking that, instead of actual arguments. 

Secondly, the "stagnant middle class" is in fact true, and yes, it is why Trump was elected. Whether the people who elected him actually knew what they were voting for is a different question. 

Thirdly, the post by Mnementh above is really good. Those sources include the US Census Bureau and McKinsey. These are reputable, and show exactly what you are claiming is a myth. 

Last edited by Fallawful - on 14 July 2019

RolStoppable said:
Mnementh said:

You completely miss the point again and again. (...)

The point is to miss the point.

It's fun, isn't it? 



NightlyPoe said:
Fallawful said:

I'm not gonna lie. I did not have much expectations but you still managed to disappoint me. Dude. You went back to square one all by yourself. 

Your response is going to be "convenient," and believe me, I did have a response. But I'm done haha 

Hint: Acceptable (scientific/social scientific/philosophical/logical questions) include words such as why, how, or what. For instance, why did the well-being of people improve? Could it be that capitalism - or could it be state intervention? Starting from there, we could have had an interesting discussion. Another question would be, how do we continue improving? There could have been stuff there to discuss. Maybe you had interesting thought. 

Double hint: Saying that one, small argument that hardly anyone makes is no longer an argument, is not an argument in itself. 

I see that's what you (and many here) wish to talk about.  The capitalism vs. socialism debate.  However, the next question could be about tariffs, immigration, automation, outsourcing, subsidies, etc.  Things that are not necessarily left and right.

Your "What's the next question?" pretty much had me stumped because there are so many ways to go.  But you seem to think that it's just this one topic (scientifically for some reason).  I, on the other hand, just see deconstructing a myth as something to accomplish in and of itself because it's useful moving forward in general.  Not just within a single topic.

I see what you are saying, truly. My posts here had an agenda to try to discuss why you think the things mentioned in this video and the thread were a myth. 

The problem when it comes to social realities is that there are so many sources of information that it is difficult to actually prove one's point. The next best way is to tap into the actual logic and see where the roots of the argument comes from, and see if that actually makes sense. It's not actually as easy to separate "myth" from everything you are trying to discuss. 



NightlyPoe said:
Mnementh said: 

This  graph shows how broken the US health care system is from another angle: the costs exploded. And as you could see the US doesn't even provide health care on a level which is matching other developed countries.

Well, finally someone addresses the point.  What a refreshing change of pace on this thread.

I would reply that income inequality is not the same thing as being left behind.  In fact, like I said earlier, I consider income inequality to be a rather childish thing to complain about.  It's essentially jealousy as an excuse for policy.  It doesn't actually get us anywhere.

The debt graph and the growth graphs are really the important ones.  Debt in particular creates stress.

However, the video's point remains more germane I think.  Do you think that people living through stagflation in the 70s wouldn't trade with us now in a heartbeat?  I mean, which time period do you want to go back to as better for the working class than right now? 

Income inequality is a problem when it does not match skill or work performed. The wages for worker's have not budged since the 80s, meaning that their wage did not increase significantly with inflation. Let's say that a teacher made $30,000 a year in 1987, and the chairman of education (or whoever the hell) $70,000. This is fine, right? The Chairman has more responsibility and should have the higher wage. 

Today, chances are that the teacher still makes $30,000 while the chairman makes 100k. Why did the wages not increase for the teacher? It is much harder to survive with the same amount of money that it was then. While 30k could have bought you a house in 1987, it gets you a small apartment now. Not to mention that the larger gap is much harder than it is to explain, since the skill of the labour has not changed. (It is, after all, the same job). 

It's a fictitious example, of course, but it explains the point. 

The bolded is funny because we just had a recession that was factually worse hitting on the economy than what happened in the 70s. They don't call it the "Great Recession" because it was a joke. 



The more people you have to compete with, the tougher it is to get noticed and climb the ladder. When you're competing with say, 100 million people, that's already a staggering amount of competition, but when you're competing with billions, that's like trying to climb Everest.

The less people you have to choose from, the more the market demands you pay to them. When you have say, 100 million people to choose from, that's a lot, but when you have billions to choose from, the labor demand is greatly lessened and therefore a persons value stagnates or drops.



Fallawful said:
NightlyPoe said:

Then why are you still misunderstanding it?

Up until like the very end when it takes a couple pot shots, it's pretty much focused on what is a common complaint:  That the working class is not keeping up while showing that the conditions are constantly improving.  People don't see how their lives are improving at such a rapid rate.

That conclusion is basically correct.  I'm sure you want to add some nuance that it could be better still, but the basic point is solid.  Things are getting better and they always have been getting better.  The feeling of being "left behind", which is not necessarily a liberal idea, in fact such populism is a major factor in the Trump coalition, is, as a whole, incorrect.

I'll tell you what. I agree: the lives of the working class has indeed improved. The majority of the population in the West no longer lives in abject poverty. 

So what? What's the next logical question? 

But here's the kicker to that: Capitalism wasn't the reason for this, but social reforms. If it all went like the capitalists would have wanted to, we'd still be like during the industrial revolution, without any worker protection laws, safety regulations, and the like. Only leftists of all kind taking actions against the companies gave them any power and voice, and ensured that the workers got their share of the profits, too.

And don't think I'm advocating for communism or the like, I just point out that either end of the spectrum is totally flawed and the general public will get screwed either way if society goes too far into one political direction.

Only a healthy mix of both capitalistic and socialistic laws ensure that both employers and employees thrive, and the government too by the way. And that healthy mix is missing in the US, being way too far on the capitalistic side and screwing over both the general public and the government.

Or, in just one picture:

For those who don't understand the implication, it's because the Republican party supports a trickle-down scheme. It's supposed to give more to the working class by taking less taxes from the rich, so the rich could give more to their workers. But what rich person would willingly do so if that person's totally honest? They also believe that this would make them invest more money back into the economy by creating new companies and thus jobs, but the large majority of millionaires rather sit on their money or just invest in the financial markets. Either way, just a tiny amount of that tax cut trickles down to the workers, and the end results are rising inequalities and governmental debts.



thismeintiel said:
So true. We have people who technically qualify as poor in our country walking around with cell phones, driving used cars that wouldn't even exist save for the people who buy them new, and have at least one nice TV in the home. A far stretch from the poor you will find in 3rd world countries.

I went to a children's hospital the other day. There was a little girl crying over her pain after surgery. I went to her and told her to shut the fuck up because there is a little boy next door dying from aids. I told her to embrace the pain because there are people who have it worse. When she said that there are also people who have it much better than her, I just slapped her.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

the-pi-guy said:
Snoopy said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RfKoex_4vI

It is happening and there are many horror stories about it.

That doesn't mean the stories are true.  

Snoopy said:

Americans can't afford health care and education because of the government is involved. Look how cost of college went way up when the federal government got involved.

Again.  Other country's governments have more involvement with their healthcare.  

And secondly, the government can get involved in a lot of different ways.  Not all of them have the same effects.  

If you can't go into any more detail than "government leads to higher costs", without even looking at the facts, then you can't make a compelling argument.  

Some of these reasons why universities have become so expensive, have nothing to do with government involvement increasing:

-A reduction in state government spending over the past 3 decades.  On this point, less government is literally leading to an increase in cost.  Contrary to your claim.

-Sports spending

The one point that does lead to an increase in spending because of the government has to do with how the government gives loans.  If you replaced loans with actual funding, universities would cost less.  

Snoopy said:

The military isn't socialism because we all know it is something we need to protect our rights. 

There are plenty of arguments that healthcare should be a right that is protected.  

The right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is something written in the constitution.  Healthcare is a natural way to protect the right to life.  

So by your argument "medicare for all" isn't socialism because we all know it is something we need to protect our rights.  

Other countries health care isn't all sunshine and rainbows. If you look at their taxes and the price for basic commodities, you will see they are hurting elsewhere that can also hinder their well being in the first place. Education again went way up in price since anyone can now take a loan and universities have no incentive to lower the price if a student decides to go to college for a useless degree. Also, federal student loans increased significantly which is a form of education spending no matter how you spin it.

Health care isn't a right and neither is the military. Both require money and people who are willing to serve us. Since slavery has been abolished, we shouldn't force others to serve us. The difference is military is something we NEED to protect our "God-given" rights which are pretty much outlined in the bill of rights. Health care at the end of the day is a WANT to improve our lives, not a need. We can have a better health care system if we got the government out of it and it will become much more affordable. The fact our precious government is willing to do deals with big pharmaceutical companies and stop outside competition is an easy example of why we are in this situation in the first place. 

I think the combination of the private sector and states/local is the way to go ultimately for health care and not the federal government which has proven to be a failure.

Last edited by Snoopy - on 16 July 2019

Snoopy said:

Other countries health care isn't all sunshine and rainbows. If you look at their taxes and the price for basic commodities, you will see they are hurting elsewhere that can also hinder their well being in the first place. Education again went way up in price since anyone can now take a loan and universities have no incentive to lower the price if a student decides to go to college for a useless degree. Also, federal student loans increased significantly which is a form of education spending no matter how you spin it.

Health care isn't a right and neither is the military. Both require money and people who are willing to serve us. Since slavery has been abolished, we shouldn't force others to serve us. The difference is military is something we NEED to protect our "God-given" rights which are pretty much outlined in the bill of rights. Health care at the end of the day is a WANT to improve our lives, not a need. We can have a better health care system if we got the government out of it and it will become much more affordable. The fact our precious government is willing to do deals with big pharmaceutical companies and stop outside competition is an easy example of why we are in this situation in the first place. 

I think the combination of the private sector and states/local is the way to go ultimately for health care and not the federal government which has proven to be a failure.

The tax rate isn't dramatically higher in Australia...
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/australians-may-pay-more-taxes-than-americans-but-they-get-more-too.html

USA: $14,115 USD per capita.
AUS: $17,146 USD per capita.
OECD Average: $12,911 USD per capita.


There has also been a slew of tax cuts being passed right now as well, which should bring our tax rate down... I know I will see an extra $1,000.

In saying that... We also tax the poor less... Because there is a moral reason for it.
http://sendmoneyaustralia.com/tax-rates-in-australia-comparison-to-usa-uk/

*****

Expenditure on Healthcare per GDP:
USA: 17%
AUS: 9.6%

Clearly higher taxes isn't a requirement for a universal healthcare system when it's cheaper.

And for that our hybrid Universal Healthcare system is ranked 2nd in the world according the world health organization... The USA is ranked 11th. - For a nation that could land a man on the moon, why is your healthcare system so crippled?

But we also have higher minimum wages, better welfare, vastly better roads, paid parental leave, less student/education debt.

And on top of that we have less poor because we distribute wealth far more effectively.

There is a reason why there is a "Stagnant working class" in the USA... And it starts from the very top.

*****

The frustrating part Snoopy is that you aren't willing to look at and recognize what other nations have done right in regards to healthcare... And why they are better the the USA's model... But instead wish to resort to a health system model that the developed world have since abandoned due to it's costs and inefficiencies.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Snoopy said:

Other countries health care isn't all sunshine and rainbows. If you look at their taxes and the price for basic commodities, you will see they are hurting elsewhere that can also hinder their well being in the first place. Education again went way up in price since anyone can now take a loan and universities have no incentive to lower the price if a student decides to go to college for a useless degree. Also, federal student loans increased significantly which is a form of education spending no matter how you spin it.

Health care isn't a right and neither is the military. Both require money and people who are willing to serve us. Since slavery has been abolished, we shouldn't force others to serve us. The difference is military is something we NEED to protect our "God-given" rights which are pretty much outlined in the bill of rights. Health care at the end of the day is a WANT to improve our lives, not a need. We can have a better health care system if we got the government out of it and it will become much more affordable. The fact our precious government is willing to do deals with big pharmaceutical companies and stop outside competition is an easy example of why we are in this situation in the first place. 

I think the combination of the private sector and states/local is the way to go ultimately for health care and not the federal government which has proven to be a failure.

The tax rate isn't dramatically higher in Australia...
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/australians-may-pay-more-taxes-than-americans-but-they-get-more-too.html

USA: $14,115 USD per capita.
AUS: $17,146 USD per capita.
OECD Average: $12,911 USD per capita.


There has also been a slew of tax cuts being passed right now as well, which should bring our tax rate down... I know I will see an extra $1,000.

In saying that... We also tax the poor less... Because there is a moral reason for it.
http://sendmoneyaustralia.com/tax-rates-in-australia-comparison-to-usa-uk/

*****

Expenditure on Healthcare per GDP:
USA: 17%
AUS: 9.6%

Clearly higher taxes isn't a requirement for a universal healthcare system when it's cheaper.

And for that our hybrid Universal Healthcare system is ranked 2nd in the world according the world health organization... The USA is ranked 11th. - For a nation that could land a man on the moon, why is your healthcare system so crippled?

But we also have higher minimum wages, better welfare, vastly better roads, paid parental leave, less student/education debt.

And on top of that we have less poor because we distribute wealth far more effectively.

There is a reason why there is a "Stagnant working class" in the USA... And it starts from the very top.

*****

The frustrating part Snoopy is that you aren't willing to look at and recognize what other nations have done right in regards to healthcare... And why they are better the the USA's model... But instead wish to resort to a health system model that the developed world have since abandoned due to it's costs and inefficiencies.

I guess you missed the part where I do want to change America's health care system but to one of free enterprise instead of giving so much power to the federal government. Which is why it is so messed up in the first place. Competition is what drives us. Also equal doesn't mean justice. If I steal someone's hard-earned money and give it to someone else to equal things out, that isn't justice. 

However, Australia is going through a lot of problems right now such as a much higher cost of living, your military is now a joke,  your colleges are nowhere near as good as ours and your unemployment rate rising. Also, bragging about welfare is just sad. Welfare is a temporary solution and should never be looked at as a good thing.