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Torillian on 12 June 2019
Azuren said:
Gender is one of a few things, depending on which definition you want to use.

Yes, there are multiple definitions. Yes, one of them refers to social norms and conventions. But yes, one of them also explicitly refers to sexes. Literally everyone in this thread is correct except for the fact that they can't agree on which definition we're talking about.

I actually don't think the last sentence is accurate. What I see is one group that agrees there are multiple definitions depending on context while another stalwartly tries to say that gender has forever and only ever will refer to sexes. 



...

LMU Uncle Alfred on 12 June 2019

I feel like gender will become or blur into genre for some weird reason. Media be overtaking.



Lube Me Up

o_O.Q on 12 June 2019
SpokenTruth said:
o_O.Q said:

"You seem to be mistaking gender identity with gender expression."

1). for this context they are one and the same, because obviously the people around you can't perceive what is going on inside your head unless you express it right? or do you live on a remote island populated by psychics?

"Your unicorn example doesn't work because how does one feel like a unicorn?"

2). the same way this woman can feel like a cat in a woman's body?

https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/item/22435-woman-says-she-s-a-cat-trapped-in-human-body-gender-identity-unknown

so you think she's crazy?

how does one feel like a female when they are in a male's body?

"To go back to my math analogy"

3). doesn't apply because you don't believe that biology has a place in discussion about gender, unless i'm wrong?

"Just recognize you are intentionally making a mockery out of people's legitimate psychological feelings and emotions"

4). i'm not, its a clarifying question because as i've said if biology is not where the differentiation is being made and instead we rely on what people identify as then this presents what i would think should be obvious problems

beyond that this is not an argument feelings do not determine reality, so why would someone's feelings matter in a discussion about reality? do you cut religious people this kind of slack?

1). No, they are not the same. Why is this so hard for you to understand?  And yes, that is exactly the purpose for having a gender expression...so that it broadcasts to others what gender they wish to present as.

2). Trans-speciesism is a fetish.  Not a gender issue.  Do you get the difference or will I need to explain this too?

3). Biology deals with the sex of a person.  Gender is a psychology function. 

4). Oh, yes you are. Especially given we've all had these clarifying discussions with you several times.  Your claims that you can just feel like a unicorn (a non-existent, non-human fabrication) is a direct insult to the actual, real psychological gender associations that people feel.

And I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph.

"No, they are not the same. Why is this so hard for you to understand?  And yes, that is exactly the purpose for having a gender expression...so that it broadcasts to others what gender they wish to present as."

all we can perceive as non-psychics is someone's expression of what they feel inside which obviously means that its the only thing relevant to the discussion

"Trans-speciesism is a fetish.  Not a gender issue."

you are the one defining gender as what someone feels they are on the inside not me

"Gender identity is the psychological self. What you feel.

Gender expression is the presentation of your gender.  Clothes are simply a part of that."

if someone feels like a cat why can't that be their gender? if someone feels like a unicorn(a white horse with a horn) why can't that be their gender?

"Gender is a psychology function."

and you don't think physiology and psychology are linked?

"Your claims that you can just feel like a unicorn"

I never said that I personally feel like a unicorn, I said that if 

"Gender identity is the psychological self. What you feel."

then why can't a person feel like a unicorn or a cat or a donkey or whatever and identify as whatever? these situations exist are you not aware of that?

"And I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph."

ok lets take incels as an example, they feel for various reasons like all women are "whores" and as a result they have great disdain for women

but to reasonable people this is not reality we understand that they have warped perceptions and as a result their emotions do not reflect material reality

the fact that someone feels a certain way does not have any bearing on what reality actually is, its wholly irrelevant to this discussion



RaptorChrist on 12 June 2019

All of the recent gender debates really bother me for some reason. It almost seems like in recent years if a man wants to be a woman or vice versa, they can just say that that's what they are, and everyone is expected to address them as such. It's kind of selfish, and it seems like an excuse to start an argument.



MrWayne on 12 June 2019
RaptorChrist said:
All of the recent gender debates really bother me for some reason. It almost seems like in recent years if a man wants to be a woman or vice versa, they can just say that that's what they are, and everyone is expected to address them as such. It's kind of selfish, and it seems like an excuse to start an argument.

I don't think you have to believe everything people are saying. I handle it this way, If someone is brave enough to dress like a woman in public he deserves to be called what ever the hell he wants.



Jumpin on 12 June 2019

Gengar (Japanese: ゲンガー Gangar) is a dual-type Ghost/Poison Pokémon introduced in Generation I.

It evolves from Haunter when traded. It is the final form of Gastly. It can Mega Evolve into Mega Gengar using the Gengarite.



I describe myself as a little dose of toxic masculinity.

Azuren on 12 June 2019
Torillian said:
Azuren said:
Gender is one of a few things, depending on which definition you want to use.

Yes, there are multiple definitions. Yes, one of them refers to social norms and conventions. But yes, one of them also explicitly refers to sexes. Literally everyone in this thread is correct except for the fact that they can't agree on which definition we're talking about.

I actually don't think the last sentence is accurate. What I see is one group that agrees there are multiple definitions depending on context while another stalwartly tries to say that gender has forever and only ever will refer to sexes. 

Really? I mostly see three groups. One the understands it's a nuanced word with multiple meanings, and two that yell about how it's biological or societal.



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

Azuren on 12 June 2019
the-pi-guy said:
o_O.Q said:

"No one has said that gender is derived from clothing. "

*looks a couple pages back*

"

Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%."

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9017717

i could look through other thread i've participated in and bring up even more if you want

Do you seriously not understand the difference between these two statements?

>Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%.

>gender is derived from clothing

Can you read this and understand it: "rule of thumb will probably cover 90%"?
He's saying that transgender men tend to wear typical masculine clothes, and transgender women tend to wear typical feminine clothes.    

He is not saying that someone is a women because they wear female clothes.  

o_O.Q said:

"If you go by chromosomes: you run into 2 difficulties..."

exceptions exist with any practical category, the same will occur with whatever redefinition of gender you believe in

"However you biologically define gender, you at minimum need to accept that scientifically there are at least 3 genders."

men, women and what else? how would you define this third gender?

"That's a fact you keep ignoring or dismissing."

because its not a fact, having a very small penis, or a very large clit or being a hermaphrodite does not make someone a third gender

but lets say that i'm wrong, how would you define this third gender?

What do you think people who are transgender are?  They are exceptions, they are not the norm.  

@bold has nothing to do with anything I've said.

What gender would you say a hermaphrodite is?  Male?  Female?  Both?  Neither?

o_O.Q said:

"You keep trying to bring up the species argument,"

i never at any point talked about species? 

So you are aware if a unicorn existed, it would be another species.  

So yes, you were talking about fictional species.  

o_O.Q said:

"but how do you think society would care?  Suppose that someone out there really wanted to be a unicorn, what does it matter?  How do you think that would affect society?"

i have no problem with people pretending to be what they want to be, i've always said that, my problem is when other people are expected or forced to abide by their delusions

the same way that i don't think christians should be able to impose their religious doctrine on people despite me also thinking that they should be free to practice them

regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification? i never expected to see someone the justifications i've seen in these discussions and i've learned a lot, that wouldn't have happened if i'd just kept my mouth shut

People are only expected to respect someone else.  

If someone is named Jonathon and they ask if you could call them Jon, there's nothing unreasonable about calling them Jon.  It's the same thing.

>regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification?

There's nothing wrong with asking questions to seek clarification.  Asking questions that make light of issues that are serious to some people on the other hand...  

o_O.Q said:

"people have to respect what other people are called (holy cow, just like it is right now!")

if you are referring to pronouns, people assess which pronouns apply to people they interact with on a subconscious level... because we identify who is male and female (through obvious biological characteristics) on a subconscious level 

the proposal here is that despite all of this a person should just fight themselves internally to submit to this ideology and i would think that in a free society we wouldn't be going down this route

What?  You identify who people are, subconsciously?  

why should they have to? in the process lying to themselves internally?

Because people deserve respect.  People that are transgender are not trying to lie to themselves.

They often have irregularities such as

-Brain structures

-Hormones

that cause them to think they are the opposite gender.  

Treatments are difficult.  One that is successful for some people is transitioning, which requires others to respect their transition.

o_O.Q said:

"If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and yet they still act like a regular person.  I don't consider that an issue. It doesn't change anything."

i wouldn't care as i've said, again i asked seeking clarification because again obviously if physical characteristics don't matter and its about what is in the mind then why couldn't someone identify as a unicorn?

They probably could.  

But there isn't likely a unicorn brain, like there are with male/female brains.  

same here as long as i don't have to entertain their bullshit and i don't have more laws and restrictions placed on my freedom then have at it

@bold:People aren't choosing to be transgender.  

The reason why some are trying to make laws is because there are others also making laws and restrictions to be placed on someone else's freedom.  

What laws are being made to restrict your freedom?  

How do they compare to the laws that are being made to restrict this fellow into using the female bathroom?

Honestly, the most unsettling aspect of that last picture is the fact that he's intentionally trying to take pictures that include other people in the bathroom, not that it's a FTM being forced to used the ladies room (which, let's be real, he's very fucking passable and wouldn't turn a single head if he walked into the men's room. I forsee very few regulations preventing him from using the restroom he wants, short of a fucking genital check before entering).



Watch me stream games and hunt trophies on my Twitch channel!

Check out my Twitch Channel!:

www.twitch.tv/AzurenGames

o_O.Q on 12 June 2019
the-pi-guy said:
o_O.Q said:

"No one has said that gender is derived from clothing. "

*looks a couple pages back*

"

Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%."

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9017717

i could look through other thread i've participated in and bring up even more if you want

Do you seriously not understand the difference between these two statements?

>Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%.

>gender is derived from clothing

Can you read this and understand it: "rule of thumb will probably cover 90%"?
He's saying that transgender men tend to wear typical masculine clothes, and transgender women tend to wear typical feminine clothes.    

He is not saying that someone is a women because they wear female clothes.  

o_O.Q said:

"If you go by chromosomes: you run into 2 difficulties..."

exceptions exist with any practical category, the same will occur with whatever redefinition of gender you believe in

"However you biologically define gender, you at minimum need to accept that scientifically there are at least 3 genders."

men, women and what else? how would you define this third gender?

"That's a fact you keep ignoring or dismissing."

because its not a fact, having a very small penis, or a very large clit or being a hermaphrodite does not make someone a third gender

but lets say that i'm wrong, how would you define this third gender?

What do you think people who are transgender are?  They are exceptions, they are not the norm.  

@bold has nothing to do with anything I've said.

What gender would you say a hermaphrodite is?  Male?  Female?  Both?  Neither?

o_O.Q said:

"You keep trying to bring up the species argument,"

i never at any point talked about species? 

So you are aware if a unicorn existed, it would be another species.  

So yes, you were talking about fictional species.  

o_O.Q said:

"but how do you think society would care?  Suppose that someone out there really wanted to be a unicorn, what does it matter?  How do you think that would affect society?"

i have no problem with people pretending to be what they want to be, i've always said that, my problem is when other people are expected or forced to abide by their delusions

the same way that i don't think christians should be able to impose their religious doctrine on people despite me also thinking that they should be free to practice them

regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification? i never expected to see someone the justifications i've seen in these discussions and i've learned a lot, that wouldn't have happened if i'd just kept my mouth shut

People are only expected to respect someone else.  

If someone is named Jonathon and they ask if you could call them Jon, there's nothing unreasonable about calling them Jon.  It's the same thing.

>regardless of that what's wrong with someone such as myself raising these issues to seek clarification?

There's nothing wrong with asking questions to seek clarification.  Asking questions that make light of issues that are serious to some people on the other hand...  

o_O.Q said:

"people have to respect what other people are called (holy cow, just like it is right now!")

if you are referring to pronouns, people assess which pronouns apply to people they interact with on a subconscious level... because we identify who is male and female (through obvious biological characteristics) on a subconscious level 

the proposal here is that despite all of this a person should just fight themselves internally to submit to this ideology and i would think that in a free society we wouldn't be going down this route

What?  You identify who people are, subconsciously?  

why should they have to? in the process lying to themselves internally?

Because people deserve respect.  People that are transgender are not trying to lie to themselves.

They often have irregularities such as

-Brain structures

-Hormones

that cause them to think they are the opposite gender.  

Treatments are difficult.  One that is successful for some people is transitioning, which requires others to respect their transition.

o_O.Q said:

"If someone wanted to be called a unicorn and yet they still act like a regular person.  I don't consider that an issue. It doesn't change anything."

i wouldn't care as i've said, again i asked seeking clarification because again obviously if physical characteristics don't matter and its about what is in the mind then why couldn't someone identify as a unicorn?

They probably could.  

But there isn't likely a unicorn brain, like there are with male/female brains.  

same here as long as i don't have to entertain their bullshit and i don't have more laws and restrictions placed on my freedom then have at it

@bold:People aren't choosing to be transgender.  

The reason why some are trying to make laws is because there are others also making laws and restrictions to be placed on someone else's freedom.  

What laws are being made to restrict your freedom?  

How do they compare to the laws that are being made to restrict this fellow into using the female bathroom?

"

the-pi-guy said:
o_O.Q said:

"No one has said that gender is derived from clothing. "

*looks a couple pages back*

"

Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%."

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9017717

i could look through other thread i've participated in and bring up even more if you want

Do you seriously not understand the difference between these two statements?

>Most transgender persons I've seen or met dress very cliche masculin or cliche feminine, so yes this rule of thumb will probably cover 90%.

>gender is derived from clothing"

his answer in response to me asking how he differentiates between men and women was to talk about clothing

what about you? how do you differentiate between men and women?

"What do you think people who are transgender are?  They are exceptions"

yes exactly to a category

just like how people with 8 limbs are an exception to the classification of humans as having 4 limbs

"What gender would you say a hermaphrodite is?"

an exception since no classification is 100 percent perfect... not even yours if you can actually define a new one

"So you are aware if a unicorn existed, it would be another species.  

So yes, you were talking about fictional species."

i'm talking about gender identity not physical reality... the exact same thing you are doing to have me accept the bullshit that because a man wears a dress that this makes him a woman

that's all in their head right? so why can't the same occur with the unicorn identity?

"If someone is named Jonathon and they ask if you could call them Jon, there's nothing unreasonable about calling them Jon.  It's the same thing."

names and pronouns are completely different, one differentiates individuals and the other differentiates between men and women

"What?  You identify who people are, subconsciously?  "

everyone does, most of our perception in case you did not know occurs subconsciously through techniques like pattern recognition


"Asking questions that make light of issues that are serious to some people on the other hand...  "

like what? the unicorn question? can you not see that if you claim that its all in someone's head that it then becomes reasonable that someone can identify as anything?

i posted a link of someone identifying as a cat, why is that wrong from your perspective? 

"Because people deserve respect."

this is a dubious claim

i don't respect white supremacists, i do not respect incels, i do not respect communists etc etc etc... i think all of these groups are mentally ill and unworthy of respect

"People that are transgender are not trying to lie to themselves"

what about those who detransition and regret their transition?

"They often have irregularities such as

-Brain structures

-Hormones"

from what i've seen more research has to be done on this with regards to brain structure because there's a lot of research that's pointing the other claiming that men and women are equal since their brains are relatively similar

with regards to hormones how could that be the case when the main component of transitioning is hormone therapy?

"But there isn't likely a unicorn brain, like there are with male/female brains.  "

so its brain structure that determines gender and brain structure is binary? if that's the case why have you argued for acknowledgement of at least 3 genders?

"People aren't choosing to be transgender."

they are choosing to identify as something other than what their appearance indicates them to be, is that better?

"What laws are being made to restrict your freedom?  "

it was a hypothetical

"How do they compare to the laws that are being made to restrict this fellow into using the female bathroom?"

what does that person identify as?


JWeinCom on 13 June 2019
RaptorChrist said:
All of the recent gender debates really bother me for some reason. It almost seems like in recent years if a man wants to be a woman or vice versa, they can just say that that's what they are, and everyone is expected to address them as such. It's kind of selfish, and it seems like an excuse to start an argument.

It only starts an argument if you want to argue with them.  They know how they feel better than I do.  If they want to be addressed by a different pronoun, it in no way diminishes my life to oblige them, so why the fuck not.