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Forums - General Discussion - Navi Made in Colab with sony, MS still Using it?

 

Pricing of Xbox VS PS%

Xbox +$150 > PS5 0 0%
 
Xbox +$100 > PS5 5 14.71%
 
Xbox +$50> PS5 4 11.76%
 
PS5 = Xbox With slight performance bost 7 20.59%
 
PS5 = Xbox With no performance boos 2 5.88%
 
Xbox will not have the pe... 3 8.82%
 
Still to early, wait for MS PR 13 38.24%
 
Total:34
eva01beserk said:
Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

.

Lisa su didin't mention XBOX .

For some reason that gives me a bad feeling. I get the feeling MS might have to pay a  bit more just for similar performance to sony. She did say that AMD started development on navy but then SONY got interested and funded them, or part im forgeting. This could end up being like bluray that ms had to pay a small royalty for every xbox sold.

With speculation on how the TF's will unfold for Navi with RDNA now, if the TF number is lower for the Navi cards, like how Nvidia's TF is usually below Radeon but has greater performance, it wouldn't be crazy to think MS may just use Radeon VII. It's already on 7nm, only launched 6 months prior to Navi, and very well may allow Anaconda to claim the performance crown on paper, even though the performance could be similar to Navi in PS5, or potentially even sightly weaker on screen. Ray tracing has been shown to be possible on Vega, and we don't know for sure about Navi yet, but both consoles could support ray tracing using these. Based on the price of Radeon VII vs the rumored prices of Navi, if Anaconda used VII, it would likely end up more expensive than PS5 at launch, or MS would have to eat that early input cost to match PS5.

Question is whether or not it would be worth it vs paying a royalty on Navi, if it's not (timed) exclusive for PS consoles. I also wouldn't find it crazy to think maybe MS wanted to use Navi and didn't want to pay royalties, so they gave SNY a wicked deal on Azure and in turn SNY allows MS to use Navi free of charge. This would allow PS to better compete with XB in the cloud and would allow XB to better compete with PS in consumer hardware.



EricHiggin said:
eva01beserk said:

For some reason that gives me a bad feeling. I get the feeling MS might have to pay a  bit more just for similar performance to sony. She did say that AMD started development on navy but then SONY got interested and funded them, or part im forgeting. This could end up being like bluray that ms had to pay a small royalty for every xbox sold.

With speculation on how the TF's will unfold for Navi with RDNA now, if the TF number is lower for the Navi cards, like how Nvidia's TF is usually below Radeon but has greater performance, it wouldn't be crazy to think MS may just use Radeon VII. It's already on 7nm, only launched 6 months prior to Navi, and very well may allow Anaconda to claim the performance crown on paper, even though the performance could be similar to Navi in PS5, or potentially even sightly weaker on screen. Ray tracing has been shown to be possible on Vega, and we don't know for sure about Navi yet, but both consoles could support ray tracing using these. Based on the price of Radeon VII vs the rumored prices of Navi, if Anaconda used VII, it would likely end up more expensive than PS5 at launch, or MS would have to eat that early input cost to match PS5.

Question is whether or not it would be worth it vs paying a royalty on Navi, if it's not (timed) exclusive for PS consoles. I also wouldn't find it crazy to think maybe MS wanted to use Navi and didn't want to pay royalties, so they gave SNY a wicked deal on Azure and in turn SNY allows MS to use Navi free of charge. This would allow PS to better compete with XB in the cloud and would allow XB to better compete with PS in consumer hardware.

That could be a strategy, but I think sony would be loosing out on that deal. While Cloud gaming will be big someday, its not today. Sony could destry 9th gen and be recognized as the gaming king and even if cloud gaming they are behind, the brand name alone and catalog of games and history of value hardware will be to big for people to ignore.

Also, some said that half the price of vega VII was the 16gb of hbm2. Where they to switch to gddr6 would massivly lower the cost of the card. Loose some performance, but cant say how much.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

eva01beserk said:
EricHiggin said:

With speculation on how the TF's will unfold for Navi with RDNA now, if the TF number is lower for the Navi cards, like how Nvidia's TF is usually below Radeon but has greater performance, it wouldn't be crazy to think MS may just use Radeon VII. It's already on 7nm, only launched 6 months prior to Navi, and very well may allow Anaconda to claim the performance crown on paper, even though the performance could be similar to Navi in PS5, or potentially even sightly weaker on screen. Ray tracing has been shown to be possible on Vega, and we don't know for sure about Navi yet, but both consoles could support ray tracing using these. Based on the price of Radeon VII vs the rumored prices of Navi, if Anaconda used VII, it would likely end up more expensive than PS5 at launch, or MS would have to eat that early input cost to match PS5.

Question is whether or not it would be worth it vs paying a royalty on Navi, if it's not (timed) exclusive for PS consoles. I also wouldn't find it crazy to think maybe MS wanted to use Navi and didn't want to pay royalties, so they gave SNY a wicked deal on Azure and in turn SNY allows MS to use Navi free of charge. This would allow PS to better compete with XB in the cloud and would allow XB to better compete with PS in consumer hardware.

That could be a strategy, but I think sony would be loosing out on that deal. While Cloud gaming will be big someday, its not today. Sony could destry 9th gen and be recognized as the gaming king and even if cloud gaming they are behind, the brand name alone and catalog of games and history of value hardware will be to big for people to ignore.

Also, some said that half the price of vega VII was the 16gb of hbm2. Where they to switch to gddr6 would massivly lower the cost of the card. Loose some performance, but cant say how much.

You have to bend sooner or later or you may/will break. It's like MS not taking the cross platform play offering from PS during the PS3 era. In retrospect, they should have. PS is starting to realize this as well as many other things, and you can see they are slowly and carefully implementing it with PS4 and prepping for PS5. The longer PS waits, the worse it get's for them, especially if MS gains too much of a cloud lead in the next gen, and especially if Stadia takes off and becomes more popular than anticipated. You always have to be looking more than just a couple steps ahead, but also can't be looking way too far ahead like the PS3 and XB1.

I would assume we would see 8GB HBM2 or 16GB DDR6 in an Anaconda. If this were to be the case, it also would allow MS to launch anytime between holiday 2019 and late 2020. With XB1 sales tanking, it wouldn't be outrageous to think they may try to launch well before PS5, with everything being taken into account. The one potential downside would be pissing off the XB1X owners. The big question there is, how many of them are spec heads who only care about having the highest spec'd hardware available? If it's the majority, which is probably the case, then Lockhart and Anaconda can launch this holiday and it won't matter much and won't really hurt the XB brand. They wouldn't lose many customers and would gain a year lead on PS5.

If MS shows their next gen hand at E3, I wouldn't be surprised to hear it's launching this holiday. To show most if not all of what they have planned now, only to launch holiday 2020, gives PS a TONNE of time to decide how they want to proceed. Not like PS could completely change the hardware, but there's a lot they could do in 18 months to counter especially when it comes to marketing.



eva01beserk said:
Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

.

Lisa su didin't mention XBOX .

For some reason that gives me a bad feeling. I get the feeling MS might have to pay a  bit more just for similar performance to sony. She did say that AMD started development on navy but then SONY got interested and funded them, or part im forgeting. This could end up being like bluray that ms had to pay a small royalty for every xbox sold.

It is very interesting that they didn't mention Xbox. To me, this says they are using Vega, something I figured one console would use after they announced the Radeon VII.

Some are trying to say that they are using the next gen iteration of AMD's GPU, but I just don't see it. For one, there's nothing guaranteeing it isn't delayed by a year like Navi was, which could mean it launching in 2021, giving Sony a year head start. And two, even if they do launch it in 2020, it will be in its infancy and in very limited supply.

No, I see it using a pared down Radeon VII. May not cost them too much more than a Navi, but it won't have all the advanced features, either.



thismeintiel said:
eva01beserk said:

For some reason that gives me a bad feeling. I get the feeling MS might have to pay a  bit more just for similar performance to sony. She did say that AMD started development on navy but then SONY got interested and funded them, or part im forgeting. This could end up being like bluray that ms had to pay a small royalty for every xbox sold.

It is very interesting that they didn't mention Xbox. To me, this says they are using Vega, something I figured one console would use after they announced the Radeon VII.

Some are trying to say that they are using the next gen iteration of AMD's GPU, but I just don't see it. For one, there's nothing guaranteeing it isn't delayed by a year like Navi was, which could mean it launching in 2021, giving Sony a year head start. And two, even if they do launch it in 2020, it will be in its infancy and in very limited supply.

No, I see it using a pared down Radeon VII. May not cost them too much more than a Navi, but it won't have all the advanced features, either.

May not cost them as much if they drop HBM2



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

Oneeee-Chan!!! said:

.

Lisa su didin't mention XBOX .

I was wrong😇😇😇



So both are using a variant of Navi, but not Navi itself, since while the consoles will have hardware based ray tracing, Navi doesn't offer that. They may both be doing what PS did with Pro. Using the existing arch (Polaris/Navi) and baking in some of the features of the upcoming newest up to date arch (Vega/"Next Gen"). Either that, or AMD may have called the "Next Gen" arch that, for that very reason. It's the 2020 arch and is what's going into next gen consoles perhaps.

What's funny about this thread now, is that it's not just are they using the same GPU, it's are they using the same everything? While we've only been given the most basic details for the main components, both consoles sound remarkably similar, they are both working with AMD, and are likely to both launch holiday 2020. While XB1 and PS4 had similarities, these two may almost be twins. If I had to bet, I would guess the main difference if there is one, would be the GPU performance, and that PS may go with a slightly weaker GPU to be able to sell $100 below Anaconda. Which would mean a $399-$499 PS5, and a $499-$599 Anaconda.

Last edited by EricHiggin - on 10 June 2019

EricHiggin said:

So both are using a variant of Navi, but not Navi itself, since while the consoles will have hardware based ray tracing, Navi doesn't offer that. They may both be doing what PS did with Pro. Using the existing arch (Polaris/Navi) and baking in some of the features of the upcoming newest up to date arch (Vega/"Next Gen"). Either that, or AMD may have called the "Next Gen" arch that, for that very reason. It's the 2020 arch and is what's going into next gen consoles perhaps.

What's funny about this thread now, is that it's not just are they using the same GPU, it's are they using the same everything? While we've only been given the most basic details for the main components, both consoles sound remarkably similar, they are both working with AMD, and are likely to both launch holiday 2020. While XB1 and PS4 had similarities, these two may almost be twins. If I had to bet, I would guess the main difference if there is one, would be the GPU performance, and that PS may go with a slightly weaker GPU to be able to sell $100 below Anaconda. Which would mean a $399-$499 PS5, and a $499-$599 Anaconda.

I could not see the show, but from the recaps I saw you might be right. Seems to be 3 waves of navi, The first wave has no ray tracing. But that they are both using navi was no surprise. My question was sony's involvement in development. Having a custom chip does not mean development just a special order. So was there any clarification in the keynote that references this involvement of sony? Will the same chip be cheaper for sony than for MS? If so, the anaconda may be a more than a bit more expensive for a bit more power.



It takes genuine talent to see greatness in yourself despite your absence of genuine talent.

eva01beserk said:
EricHiggin said:

So both are using a variant of Navi, but not Navi itself, since while the consoles will have hardware based ray tracing, Navi doesn't offer that. They may both be doing what PS did with Pro. Using the existing arch (Polaris/Navi) and baking in some of the features of the upcoming newest up to date arch (Vega/"Next Gen"). Either that, or AMD may have called the "Next Gen" arch that, for that very reason. It's the 2020 arch and is what's going into next gen consoles perhaps.

What's funny about this thread now, is that it's not just are they using the same GPU, it's are they using the same everything? While we've only been given the most basic details for the main components, both consoles sound remarkably similar, they are both working with AMD, and are likely to both launch holiday 2020. While XB1 and PS4 had similarities, these two may almost be twins. If I had to bet, I would guess the main difference if there is one, would be the GPU performance, and that PS may go with a slightly weaker GPU to be able to sell $100 below Anaconda. Which would mean a $399-$499 PS5, and a $499-$599 Anaconda.

I could not see the show, but from the recaps I saw you might be right. Seems to be 3 waves of navi, The first wave has no ray tracing. But that they are both using navi was no surprise. My question was sony's involvement in development. Having a custom chip does not mean development just a special order. So was there any clarification in the keynote that references this involvement of sony? Will the same chip be cheaper for sony than for MS? If so, the anaconda may be a more than a bit more expensive for a bit more power.

Lisa started with PS, and said they are using a semi custom solution for their next gen console. She didn't say much about it. When she talked about Project Scarlett, she did say the goal for MS is to build the ultimate gaming machine or something like that. Sounded a lot like an XB1X level of no compromises.

Since Phil said at the MS show that the XB1X team is the one working on Scarlett, sounds to me like it will end up with the most overall performance. Hard to say though. Phil said it'll their most powerful console ever, which is a far cry from the world's most powerful console. Phil clearly ain't so sure it's going to be the highest performer and is being careful not to oversell it.

As for PS5, is PS keeping tight lipped because they are purposely making a weaker console to be able to sell at a lower price, or is it going to actually outperform Scarlett and absolutely blow people away?

Overall Lisa didn't say much about either, other than they are both semi custom and both are using the same tech for the most part, but in a very general manner, so we really don't know exactly. AMD and MS have talked a lot about their overall partnership lately however, and AMD is doing a lot of work with MS in the server and cloud space, so in terms of costs, XB may be getting just as good a deal as PS, if not better possibly.

Scarlett launches holiday 2020, and PS5 not for another year, so likely after E3 2020 sometime, probably holiday as well. Based on the differences between the 2013 consoles, and how they've become much more alike mid gen, if both launch holiday 2020, we're probably looking at two super similar consoles.

One thing that's got me wondering, is that Scarlett sounds like just one console. There wasn't any Scarlett family talk at E3, so did MS decide to pick one or the other, or split the difference and find the middle? If PS is going to keep the PS4's around with PS5, there isn't much reason for XB Lockhart. Might as well just keep making XB1X. 



EricHiggin said:
eva01beserk said:

I could not see the show, but from the recaps I saw you might be right. Seems to be 3 waves of navi, The first wave has no ray tracing. But that they are both using navi was no surprise. My question was sony's involvement in development. Having a custom chip does not mean development just a special order. So was there any clarification in the keynote that references this involvement of sony? Will the same chip be cheaper for sony than for MS? If so, the anaconda may be a more than a bit more expensive for a bit more power.

Lisa started with PS, and said they are using a semi custom solution for their next gen console. She didn't say much about it. When she talked about Project Scarlett, she did say the goal for MS is to build the ultimate gaming machine or something like that. Sounded a lot like an XB1X level of no compromises.

Since Phil said at the MS show that the XB1X team is the one working on Scarlett, sounds to me like it will end up with the most overall performance. Hard to say though. Phil said it'll their most powerful console ever, which is a far cry from the world's most powerful console. Phil clearly ain't so sure it's going to be the highest performer and is being careful not to oversell it.

As for PS5, is PS keeping tight lipped because they are purposely making a weaker console to be able to sell at a lower price, or is it going to actually outperform Scarlett and absolutely blow people away?

Overall Lisa didn't say much about either, other than they are both semi custom and both are using the same tech for the most part, but in a very general manner, so we really don't know exactly. AMD and MS have talked a lot about their overall partnership lately however, and AMD is doing a lot of work with MS in the server and cloud space, so in terms of costs, XB may be getting just as good a deal as PS, if not better possibly.

Scarlett launches holiday 2020, and PS5 not for another year, so likely after E3 2020 sometime, probably holiday as well. Based on the differences between the 2013 consoles, and how they've become much more alike mid gen, if both launch holiday 2020, we're probably looking at two super similar consoles.

One thing that's got me wondering, is that Scarlett sounds like just one console. There wasn't any Scarlett family talk at E3, so did MS decide to pick one or the other, or split the difference and find the middle? If PS is going to keep the PS4's around with PS5, there isn't much reason for XB Lockhart. Might as well just keep making XB1X. 

You're right about the careful wording.  Not only that, but they only revealed the exact info that Sony did.  I would think they would at least announce the Tflops, like they did with the X.  My guess is that they may know they are only matching Sony or may be a little weaker, so aren't going to announce anything, just for Sony to announce the same or better performance.  Or MS doesn't have any idea how powerful the PS5 is going to be, so aren't saying anything until it is fully revealed for the same reasons as the former.  If they do end up being very similar in power, or PS5 is more powerful, I'd say Sony has next gen on lock.

As for Lockhart, if it was the 4Tflops Lockhart that was leaked, I can see why they would do away with it.  Even if the GPU would still be pretty close to the X's perfomance because of the improvements Navi brings, having a much smaller number just isn't good for PR.  Sure, it has a much better CPU, but your average consumer isn't going to know that.  But they will do a little research, or it may be printed on the box, and seeing the old one being 6 and the new one being "only" 4 would turn them off.  I think it also just causes confusion.  I mean, according to rumors there were 4 separate SKUs.  The Lockhart and Anaconda, both with discless versions.  An average consumer trying to work out which one they should get, sees 4 versions of the XB2 and only one for the PS5, is probably going to go for the PS5.

Last edited by thismeintiel - on 11 June 2019