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EricHiggin on 05 July 2019
Machiavellian said:
EricHiggin said:

The police have a job to do. They serve and protect. That's their job and people look up to them and rely on them to do their job and do it properly. If they can't handle it, that's their problem, not the people's.

Or maybe people shouldn't be putting everything on the President? Considering they're just one person, who has a job to do for the people, who's supposed to just deal with it, whatever comes their way.

lol, had to find someway to throw Trump into the mix.  At least you are focused.

Who ever said anything about them not being able to handle their job.  I stated they are undermanned.  When you come up with a solution for that problem then we can talk.  This blind believe that the Police can be everywhere at once seems silly.

Who said anything about Trump? I thought he was just 1 of 45. You just had to throw Sting into the mix... A little off topic no?

Sounds a lot like the President being hamstrung. If only they had more power to themselves or manpower in general. That wouldn't be a good thing though for many reasons, so they have to deal with what they have at the moment, and if things don't go well, guess who get's blamed, and legitimately so, apparently? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, or should the kitchen be more comfortable?

It's too bad when the next war starts that directly impacts America, they won't be able to help much. Planning and moving troops or weapons to where they are needed asap would be so useful don't you think? One can only dream of such a world... Now if you'll excuse me, I've got more milk to churn, and you better finish stomping those grapes, before they go sour.



jason1637 on 05 July 2019

Eric brings up a good point. When something bad happens in America we blame the President and his admin because we hold them to that standard. But when the police fail to do their job we make excuses because there are not enough of them.



Biggerboat1 on 07 July 2019
jason1637 said:
Biggerboat1 said:

You're missing the point. Policing, universal healthcare, UBI, these are all large, complex issues that even experts and professors argue over. So you just bashing out a sentence on each and acting like it's problem solved is a little silly... 

If the number of police was 990K, or 790K or 590K, you would have made the exact same point... It's a big number, so what's the police's problem!?

790K is only large or small when looked at in context. You think police forces aren't stretched and resources aren't scarce? I don't live in the states but from what I see & read the forces aren't exactly flush and crime rates are pretty high in many places... So it doesn't seem like it's the land of milk and honey you make it out to be.

So what would you do, take a couple of hundred officers off their normal duty, to stop a troublemaker reporter getting roughed up and instead what? You don't think there will be consequences for pulling those officers off their posts? What if you prevent 1 assault but fail to stop a couple of rapes and a murder? What if the department doesn't have the resources to fund overtime?

Your views are just so simplified and, I'll say it again, naive!

Which brings me to your last point "Euthanasia is a dumb concept and the guy is wasting his last few days on it while he can be doing something productive."

I mean, this sentence just sums up your whole approach - close-minded and arrogant. Who are you to tell anyone how they should live their last days? Who bestowed you with all the answers? Did you read the article? Both him and his wife seemed like intelligent, sensitive people who are wrestling with an awful situation in the most dignified way they can, only for some keyboard warrior to tell them they're doing wrong... I mean, if you are capable of any empathy at all, you're hiding it very well.

Would you have the balls to say that to their faces? I'm guessing no.

I never claimed it was problem solved. You mentioned me supporting them and I just said why I do.

1) 990k and 590k are big numbers. But the point I'm trying to make is that the police have the resources and manpower. The reason some cities and towns have high crime rates is because they have incompetent cops that cant do their job right.

It's a simple pov but that's because it's not that complicated. The job of the police is ot maintain order and protect the people. 2) When the police fault o do this they fail at their jobs. When the same incidents continue to happen its more obvious that the police lack protocall to handle them.

3) I'm not telling the guy how he should live his life. I just find what he's doing pointless and a waste of time and i'd suggest he do more positive things. If he wants to waste his last days campaigning for euthanasia then more power to the guy but I wouldn't recommend or support it.

I'm very empathetic. I'd say i'm one of the most empathetic people I know. I just don't have empathy for someone wasting their time on a cause I don't support. I would not say it to the guys face unless I was asked for my opinion.

1) You've still failed to demonstrate that they have sufficient resources & manpower. Again, you're simply saying 790K is a big number - so what's the problem!? Let's forget that number for a second - what's the minimum number of police, operating in a competent manner that could police all protests & handle all crime in the US? You must have an answer to this as you seem certain that 790K is more than enough! If you could also explain your working that would be great ;)

2) Again, your habit of the removal of all nuance is front and centre here... Yes, it is their duty to maintain order and protect, but look at what they're up against - large areas of extreme poverty where crime flourishes, draconian narcotics laws that ensure an endless cycle of gang related violence and drug networks, the world's largest 'rehabilitation' industry, that is more effective at taking petty criminals and turning them into career criminals than it is at turning their lives around, a resurgence in race-related tensions throughout the country (stoked by you know who), resulting in more violence, I could go on, but you get the point... 

You could double the numbers of police and you're still not going to eradicate crime as until the systemic causes of these problems are addressed they are essentially acting as crime conveyer belts...

It's really, really easy to just say that they should just be more competent but there is no magic wand it's an incredibly complex situation. You can continue to criticise everyone and everything for not being your optimal Utopian version, but it solves nothing...

3) So you only have empathy for people who's stances mirror your own? I'm not sure you understand the definition of empathy...

The guy is having to spend his last days filling in forms to ensure that he has an exit strategy that avoids months of pain and torment. jason1637 determining that 'life is precious' and 'euthanasia is dumb' isn't going to alleviate his suffering. In addition to this he's deciding to put his remaining energies into campaigning for a cause that he deeply believes in and if successful will benefit, not himself, but other's in similar situations in the future. I think most people would see that as noble...

But not you - it seems, to you, people fall into 2 categories - those who agree with you and dumb people who are wasting their time! A bit of humility goes a long way. But let me guess, you are one of the most humble people you know!?

Last edited by Biggerboat1 - on 07 July 2019

EricHiggin on 07 July 2019
jason1637 said:
Eric brings up a good point. When something bad happens in America we blame the President and his admin because we hold them to that standard. But when the police fail to do their job we make excuses because there are not enough of them.

This is the future, where we don't care about efficiency, it's all about more. Don't think much, just spend more money. Don't necessarily use people, push to automate more. Don't complain for the sake of it, just deal with it or come up with a perfect solution and get it implemented asap. Just look at how quiet it's been since Trump has taken office, and how constructive the complaints have been since so many have been brought forward with useful implementable solutions, not to mention the system sorting itself out in 2020. If only there was unlimited money and useful good people who wouldn't be taken away from something else of importance to fix problems like these. I mean, how else could you solve these unsolvable problems?



Immersiveunreality on 07 July 2019
jason1637 said:
Eric brings up a good point. When something bad happens in America we blame the President and his admin because we hold them to that standard. But when the police fail to do their job we make excuses because there are not enough of them.

But how can we criticize the logistics of the police when we have no understanding of it?

How can you tell what number of policeofficers is high enough to do what you think they're failing in?



haxxiy on 07 July 2019
Immersiveunreality said:
jason1637 said:
Eric brings up a good point. When something bad happens in America we blame the President and his admin because we hold them to that standard. But when the police fail to do their job we make excuses because there are not enough of them.

But how can we criticize the logistics of the police when we have no understanding of it?

How can you tell what number of policeofficers is high enough to do what you think they're failing in?

Well, we know the number of police officers per capita in the US is about average, compared to other developed countries.

Yet, it is more violent than any of those. Why?

Perhaps because income inequality in the US is higher than other developed countries as well.



 

 

 

 

 

Immersiveunreality on 07 July 2019
haxxiy said:
Immersiveunreality said:

But how can we criticize the logistics of the police when we have no understanding of it?

How can you tell what number of policeofficers is high enough to do what you think they're failing in?

Well, we know the number of police officers per capita in the US is about average, compared to other developed countries.

Yet, it is more violent than any of those. Why?

Perhaps because income inequality in the US is higher than other developed countries as well.

It is hard to tell when we are not insiders.

Europe gun laws are stricter so police dont need to spread out and have as many emergencies like in the US,that might be one of the factors counting.(people also might call the cops more quickly because they expect more people to carry weapons)

I do not really know about income inequality but those i know that lived in the US for some years talked about the payment for work being higher than here while also having less tax,that ofcourse might be biased information .



Machiavellian on 07 July 2019
jason1637 said:
Eric brings up a good point. When something bad happens in America we blame the President and his admin because we hold them to that standard. But when the police fail to do their job we make excuses because there are not enough of them.

lol, Jason, do you live in the US.  We blame the police for everything.  Its rarely a time people do not blame the police.  If there are not enough police how do you fix that problem because manpower isn't something you can just brush off because its inconvenient to your point.  In other words, you need someone to blame and the police is always there to fit the bill, no matter if you understand the situation.  



Machiavellian on 07 July 2019
EricHiggin said:
Machiavellian said:

lol, had to find someway to throw Trump into the mix.  At least you are focused.

Who ever said anything about them not being able to handle their job.  I stated they are undermanned.  When you come up with a solution for that problem then we can talk.  This blind believe that the Police can be everywhere at once seems silly.

Who said anything about Trump? I thought he was just 1 of 45. You just had to throw Sting into the mix... A little off topic no?

Sounds a lot like the President being hamstrung. If only they had more power to themselves or manpower in general. That wouldn't be a good thing though for many reasons, so they have to deal with what they have at the moment, and if things don't go well, guess who get's blamed, and legitimately so, apparently? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, or should the kitchen be more comfortable?

It's too bad when the next war starts that directly impacts America, they won't be able to help much. Planning and moving troops or weapons to where they are needed asap would be so useful don't you think? One can only dream of such a world... Now if you'll excuse me, I've got more milk to churn, and you better finish stomping those grapes, before they go sour.

lol, you go me there.

I hope you have this same attitude for the next president.  should be interesting if you keep the same points if the next President isn't someone you support.



jason1637 on 07 July 2019
Biggerboat1 said:
jason1637 said:

I never claimed it was problem solved. You mentioned me supporting them and I just said why I do.

1) 990k and 590k are big numbers. But the point I'm trying to make is that the police have the resources and manpower. The reason some cities and towns have high crime rates is because they have incompetent cops that cant do their job right.

It's a simple pov but that's because it's not that complicated. The job of the police is ot maintain order and protect the people. 2) When the police fault o do this they fail at their jobs. When the same incidents continue to happen its more obvious that the police lack protocall to handle them.

3) I'm not telling the guy how he should live his life. I just find what he's doing pointless and a waste of time and i'd suggest he do more positive things. If he wants to waste his last days campaigning for euthanasia then more power to the guy but I wouldn't recommend or support it.

I'm very empathetic. I'd say i'm one of the most empathetic people I know. I just don't have empathy for someone wasting their time on a cause I don't support. I would not say it to the guys face unless I was asked for my opinion.

1) You've still failed to demonstrate that they have sufficient resources & manpower. Again, you're simply saying 790K is a big number - so what's the problem!? Let's forget that number for a second - what's the minimum number of police, operating in a competent manner that could police all protests & handle all crime in the US? You must have an answer to this as you seem certain that 790K is more than enough! If you could also explain your working that would be great ;)

2) Again, your habit of the removal of all nuance is front and centre here... Yes, it is their duty to maintain order and protect, but look at what they're up against - large areas of extreme poverty where crime flourishes, draconian narcotics laws that ensure an endless cycle of gang related violence and drug networks, the world's largest 'rehabilitation' industry, that is more effective at taking petty criminals and turning them into career criminals than it is at turning their lives around, a resurgence in race-related tensions throughout the country (stoked by you know who), resulting in more violence, I could go on, but you get the point... 

You could double the numbers of police and you're still not going to eradicate crime as until the systemic causes of these problems are addressed they are essentially acting as crime conveyer belts...

It's really, really easy to just say that they should just be more competent but there is no magic wand it's an incredibly complex situation. You can continue to criticise everyone and everything for not being your optimal Utopian version, but it solves nothing...

3) So you only have empathy for people who's stances mirror your own? I'm not sure you understand the definition of empathy...

The guy is having to spend his last days filling in forms to ensure that he has an exit strategy that avoids months of pain and torment. jason1637 determining that 'life is precious' and 'euthanasia is dumb' isn't going to alleviate his suffering. In addition to this he's deciding to put his remaining energies into campaigning for a cause that he deeply believes in and if successful will benefit, not himself, but other's in similar situations in the future. I think most people would see that as noble...

But not you - it seems, to you, people fall into 2 categories - those who agree with you and dumb people who are wasting their time! A bit of humility goes a long way. But let me guess, you are one of the most humble people you know!?

1.I'm not saying that I expect them to handle all crime. I expect them to be able to handle violence at protest because this isn't the first time it's happened. It's become common so they should know how to handle it by now. Well if you take a look at this maphttps://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Police_per_100,000_population_by_country_world_map.svgyou see that we have around the same amount of officers per 100k people compared to other western countries. 

2. Dude it's their job to go against these things. Don't become a cop if you can't handle the job.

3. I have lots of empathy. I feel for the guy that is suffering and that he thinks it's bad enough that he wants to end his life. I just don't believe that he should be supporting euthanasia because it's wrong. You can still be empathetic towards someone and not agree with their stances. I don't see it as noble just a waste of time. It's like if a terorrist that helped his community was about to die and trying to radicalize people in his last days. I'd see that as dumb too.