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tsogud said:
Pemalite said:

I think the issue I have with all of this... Is that people are painting all police officers with the same coloured brush.
...And that is equally as dangerous as painting all African Americans with the same coloured brush.

Using your logic of silence is violence can be applied to any demographic, if you have a person of colour murder someone, should we label every person of colour the same? No. No we do not. That is how racism and bigotry starts and that just isn't acceptable. Ever.

Just because it's an Authority on the receiving end doesn't change that. - First responders (And I will include police in this) are typically trained to "take a step back" if they are uncomfortable with something, there isn't any shame in police officers taking a step back and not getting involved, you will not be caught in any crossfire from either side then.

I would assume a large proportion of protestors aren't doing the wrong thing, could have framed my statements a little better, I have not and will not pick a side in this childish bullshit.
But from the visual representation I have seen, things are pretty extreme and the protestors and counter protestors are being extremist.

Demonstrations need to be peaceful, it needs to take the legal route.
If someone takes the low road, you take the high road.

Either side cannot be forgiven for their transgressions and those people need to be held accountable in the rule of law.

I am part of the LGBTQI community, I know very well from first hand experience what it's like to be on the receiving end of discrimination, especially as someone who was "out" when the country was very homophobic, but no way is causing violence and destruction an appropriate answer.



You are falsely equating a profession, with which you have a choice, with a racial group, with which you don't. How can that make sense to you?? They chose to be a cop, they chose to take and follow an oath to protect the citizens of their country not murder them, they chose to stay silent and standby while someone was getting murdered. You don't choose, or change, your race, you don't choose the society in which you are born into, you don't choose to be systematically targeted because of the color of your skin. Their badge comes off at the end of their shift or when they quit or get fired, but black people cannot take off their skin when they're tired of the injustices. They are themselves 24/7 and because of that they're callously targeted by an oppressive system day in and day out. How can you seriously equate the two and treat it as if they don't have any major difference??

We need major criminal justice reform in America and defunding of the police across the board to ever hope to stop the problem of police brutality that's been going on for decades. The system is broken and has been broken for far too long.

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality." - Desmond Tutu

You can't, as a white person, decide how black and brown people are supposed to act when their family members are being murdered in cold blood. That's just not how it works. The same way a straight cis person can't decide when and how it's appropriate for queer people to protest the injustices and murder of their own. What do you think happened at Stonewall?? What do you think happened when black people demanded not to be property?? Do you think they just held hands with the slave owners and the KKK and sang Kumbaya until they felt guilty and everything was solved?? It is never when the oppressor is comfortable with change that actual change happens, because they are never going to be comfortable, change has to be demanded by the people. From what you're saying, if you were alive back then you'd describe the slaves as extremists because they didn't take your self described "proper route"???

In our constitution it says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

The current system of governance has never appropriately and fairly secured these unalienable rights for black people in this country. EVERY. SINGLE. INSTITUTION. Whether it's housing, education, the crimal justice system, etc. has systematically, overtly and covertly, targeted black and brown people in America for centuries. Until there's justice there can never truly be any peace.

"You are falsely equating a profession, with which you have a choice, with a racial group, with which you don't. How can that make sense to you?? They chose to be a cop, they chose to take and follow an oath to protect the citizens of their country not murder them, they chose to stay silent and standby while someone was getting murdered. You don't choose, or change, your race, you don't choose the society in which you are born into, you don't choose to be systematically targeted because of the color of your skin. Their badge comes off at the end of their shift or when they quit or get fired, but black people cannot take off their skin when they're tired of the injustices. They are themselves 24/7 and because of that they're callously targeted by an oppressive system day in and day out. How can you seriously equate the two and treat it as if they don't have any major difference??"

>I think the point Pemalite is getting at is you CANNOT paint a multitude of people with a broad brush be it along lines of profession or along lines of skin color. It's faulty logic that denies the individual merits of the people you are painting with said broad brush.

Our job is to separate the good from the bad and promote the good and condemn the bad. Painting with a broad brush achieves the opposite of that.



tsogud said:
KLAMarine said:

"As for the second bit, maybe if this wasn't a problem that had been going on for generations I would be able to agree with you. I would like it if people protested the "right" way, however, we have largely seen that protesting the "right" way hasn't worked."

>The LA riots of the 90s didn't seem to do a thing to prevent Floyd's death either. Maybe rioting and looting isn't the way either?

"More so, when someone does protest in a completely nonviolent way, they are still told "not here, not now, not like this, can't you do it in a way where we don't have to look at it". Like, I don't like violent protests, but all of this blood is on the hands of the system which has failed to implement change."

>I'm still curious as to what change it is you'd like to see.

When one sets out to achieve a goal, it's important to define that goal so that one can track progress and discern the moment it has been achieved.

I think Dr. King knew that and practiced non-violence his whole life and managed to get things done without rioting or looting. I'm sure he had his detractors that told him "that's not the right way", among them people like Malcolm X, but had Dr King resorted to violence, that would have been the moment his detractors would have gained higher moral basis to oppose him and potentially win allies that were sympathetic to King's goals but also very much opposed to violence.

"I've quoted this a few times, but in the words of Martin Luther King Jr "a riot is the language of the unheard [...] And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention."

>Officer Derek was fired and has been hit with murder/manslaughter charges.

When person a kills person b, directly or indirectly, the appropriate course of action is to put that person on trial and carry out the sentence as given.

Not sure what more one could want. Perhaps we could put in place measures to reduce the risk of mishap but I don't think there ever will be a time where we can reduce the likelihood of mishap to absolute zero. Law enforcement means confrontation of some sort is ultimately inevitable and there will never not be a potential for something somewhere to go wrong.

How does one guard against human error? Against corruption? Against accident?

One can try with great success but never perfect success. The potential for something going wrong somewhere will never be absolute zero.

Anything in particular you wanted to bring to my attention?



KLAMarine said:
tsogud said:

You are falsely equating a profession, with which you have a choice, with a racial group, with which you don't. How can that make sense to you?? They chose to be a cop, they chose to take and follow an oath to protect the citizens of their country not murder them, they chose to stay silent and standby while someone was getting murdered. You don't choose, or change, your race, you don't choose the society in which you are born into, you don't choose to be systematically targeted because of the color of your skin. Their badge comes off at the end of their shift or when they quit or get fired, but black people cannot take off their skin when they're tired of the injustices. They are themselves 24/7 and because of that they're callously targeted by an oppressive system day in and day out. How can you seriously equate the two and treat it as if they don't have any major difference??

We need major criminal justice reform in America and defunding of the police across the board to ever hope to stop the problem of police brutality that's been going on for decades. The system is broken and has been broken for far too long.

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality." - Desmond Tutu

You can't, as a white person, decide how black and brown people are supposed to act when their family members are being murdered in cold blood. That's just not how it works. The same way a straight cis person can't decide when and how it's appropriate for queer people to protest the injustices and murder of their own. What do you think happened at Stonewall?? What do you think happened when black people demanded not to be property?? Do you think they just held hands with the slave owners and the KKK and sang Kumbaya until they felt guilty and everything was solved?? It is never when the oppressor is comfortable with change that actual change happens, because they are never going to be comfortable, change has to be demanded by the people. From what you're saying, if you were alive back then you'd describe the slaves as extremists because they didn't take your self described "proper route"???

In our constitution it says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

The current system of governance has never appropriately and fairly secured these unalienable rights for black people in this country. EVERY. SINGLE. INSTITUTION. Whether it's housing, education, the crimal justice system, etc. has systematically, overtly and covertly, targeted black and brown people in America for centuries. Until there's justice there can never truly be any peace.

"You are falsely equating a profession, with which you have a choice, with a racial group, with which you don't. How can that make sense to you?? They chose to be a cop, they chose to take and follow an oath to protect the citizens of their country not murder them, they chose to stay silent and standby while someone was getting murdered. You don't choose, or change, your race, you don't choose the society in which you are born into, you don't choose to be systematically targeted because of the color of your skin. Their badge comes off at the end of their shift or when they quit or get fired, but black people cannot take off their skin when they're tired of the injustices. They are themselves 24/7 and because of that they're callously targeted by an oppressive system day in and day out. How can you seriously equate the two and treat it as if they don't have any major difference??"

>I think the point Pemalite is getting at is you CANNOT paint a multitude of people with a broad brush be it along lines of profession or along lines of skin color. It's faulty logic that denies the individual merits of the people you are painting with said broad brush.

Our job is to separate the good from the bad and promote the good and condemn the bad. Painting with a broad brush achieves the opposite of that.

No. That's not the point because he would have said that. He used specific words like "equally dangerous" to describe painting all people of a certain profession one way to being racist. They're not the same thing at all.

And that's not even the issue or concern I raised. So if that is his point then he's attacking a straw man because in nowhere in my posts did I paint all cops with the same brush. The problem I was talking about is the system of governance and the institution itself in combination with America's systematic racism is what leads to the kind of police brutality we see.

Last edited by tsogud - on 01 June 2020

 

KLAMarine said:
tsogud said:

Anything in particular you wanted to bring to my attention?

Yeah. Stop using Dr. MLK Jr's life and teachings disingenuously. There's a thread there for you.



 

Fact of the matter is the only reason this cop was charged with anything more than a slap on the wrist is because of violent rioting.

If that didn't happen, a man getting murdered on camera would've been swept under the rug and nothing would have been done.



tsogud said:
Immersiveunreality said:

ALL ACTS Of VIOLENCE ARE DAMN SHAMEFULL BEING ESCALATED OR NOT,THERE IS NO GOOD EXCUSE.

Destroying property of others and hurting unrelated people will not stop the police from killing black and brown people,those people aren't yours and no ones sacrifices to take no matter the cause.

I'm not excusing the fucking unnecessary violence. And I don't condone looting. But do I give a fuck if Target gets looted? No. Target doesn't even give a fuck themselves.

The Boston Tea Party was considered an act of violence and rebellion, maybe you should denounce America with the same vigor as you're denouncing these protests. Shit, while you're at it, at the start of the civil war there was rightly acts of violence against slave owners, are you going to denounce that. It's funny you won't tho, I wonder why.. I guess racism is "no good excuse"

You're throwing the blame on the people when you should be focusing on the system that brought us to this point and the racism that allowed that oppressive system to stay intact for centuries. Your annoyance and anger are misplaced. People get fed up with having their brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, etc. get killed in cold blood with no accountability placed on the murderer.

And there was a simple way to stop all of this. Arrest and rightly charge ALL the officers present. And radically reform the justice system but no, confronting your own prejudice and racism is too uncomfortable for white America.

There would have been no violence had the police done their job. There would have been no violence had the police not escalated the situation with violence. There would have been no violence had there been justice. There would have been no violence had the US not deployed the military to gas, shoot, tase, bomb, etc. their civilians conducting a peaceful protest. There would have been no violence had our justice system worked for ALL people.

First bolded :I'm calling those that commit violence out for being idiots that have no place in the protests and discredit the cause of the others and i think they should be punished yes but i'm not throwing blame on the majority of protesters so why can't you differentiate between the two?

I hold no anger,just sadness for the victims on both sides.

Second bolded:And therefore you have to react on everything with violence on the wrong targets,what a sad pitiful excuse for weak human beings.



Soundwave said:
Fact of the matter is the only reason this cop was charged with anything more than a slap on the wrist is because of violent rioting.

If that didn't happen, a man getting murdered on camera would've been swept under the rug and nothing would have been done.

There should be some form of independent force that does nothing else than investigations on institutions like the US police.



Colin Kaepernick tried "peaceful protest" and how'd that go for him? Blacklisted by the NFL and a bunch of people's panties in a wad over a guy taking a knee.

Peaceful protest ultimately does not work for issues like this.

The only reason this cop is arrested right now is because the powers that be are afraid of how much damage is being done and finally got forced into arresting him.

A "peaceful protest" would've led to nothing, that cop is probably back out on the streets after a 4-6 month "paid leave" vacation, no one is charged with anything serious, and the issue is quietly swept under the rug. 



Immersiveunreality said:
Soundwave said:
Fact of the matter is the only reason this cop was charged with anything more than a slap on the wrist is because of violent rioting.

If that didn't happen, a man getting murdered on camera would've been swept under the rug and nothing would have been done.

There should be some form of independent force that does nothing else than investigations on institutions like the US police.

There needs to be civilian review boards. Even with boards of medicine and nursing, almost every state requires by law that a minimum number of board members are not members of the profession. 



JRPGfan said:

What the actual f***.

*edit: Dammit Hiku why did you link those things....  I kept watching (scrolling down twitter) and theres like clips of cops getting beat the hell outta on there and dragged through the streets, vids of of a shop owner, takeing a sword to swing at looters, and then getting stomped/kicked until hes dead. WTF.....  Rioting looks crazy.  Too much for me man.

Guys, that guy did not die and he was also confirmed not to be the business owner (he was protecting his favourite bar)