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sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

"Who do they vote for when nothing ever changes?"

>For candidates who will change things.

"I don't think it is the responsibility of those being murdered to write the laws which would prevent them from being murdered."

>They should make it their responsibility. They should stick their heads deep into this issue and contribute a maximum amount into the writing of these laws as physically possible. Them being so passive about these laws tells me they don't care that much...

"That said, I think massive changes need to occur at all levels to change the relationship between the police and the people, and change the relationship between the people and those found guilty/accused of crimes. While this only addresses one small piece of a huge problem, I think this is a good start:

https://www.joincampaignzero.org/solutions#solutionsoverview"

>Which of these proposals do you think would have prevented Floyd's death?

You seemed to have completely ignored my first point, so I see no reason to repeat myself on that.

As for my second point, I think your twisting of what I said is an incredibly shitty thing to do. I never said that anyone was being passive about these laws, so for you to even make these accusations I think is pretty illuminating about your mindset on the issues. There are many people who are being proactive about these laws. I posted one example of that in my comment. However, my point was that the fact that people like you are demanding that the victims write the laws is in itself a perversion of justice. It is not the way that these things should work. It is due to a complete failure of the system, and we should demand that the system improves and does its fucking job. The many people and organization who are putting forward policy proposals and demands are going above and beyond what should be required of them, so for you to accuse them of not caring, man that fucking pisses me off...

As for the last point, something I often like to say in regards to mass shootings is that we shouldn't look to implement reactive policies to prevent one specific instance. We should be proactive instead of reacting. We should look to do the most good, instead of trying to prevent something that has already happened. That said, I think numerous things that were listed on that site could have made a difference, most notably changing how officers respond to minor offenses and improving training. The thing is, a lot of this comes down to changing mindsets. It isn't about saying or doing one specific thing, it is about fundamentally changing the relationship between police and the community, and that is something which cannot be done just by making one or two small changes. It requires foundational change.

Trying to enact preventative measures IS a proactive approach.

TK-Karma said:
KLAMarine said:

"Who do they vote for when nothing ever changes?"

>For candidates who will change things.

I am seriously struggling to accept that you could legitimately be this naive.

Your behaviour is in-line with what the protests are about in the first place ... many people do not believe that the system works, from their subjective viewpoint. The outcomes they experience in their day-to-day lives are living proof to them that it doesn't work. They are trying to communicate this to naive people like you in the mainstream who just gaslight them and tell them to go back to voting and it'll all be ok.

Please at least make an attempt to learn inference as a skill for critical thinking.

"many people do not believe that the system works, from their subjective viewpoint"

>Indeed, very subjective. And that's a problem.



KLAMarine said:
 

"many people do not believe that the system works, from their subjective viewpoint"

>Indeed, very subjective. And that's a problem.

Well then you and the rest of those in the US with your opinion had better hurry up and figure out how to engage in meaningful conversations towards some kind of consensus with your rioting peers.

Your demonstrated strategy for political discourse on this forum lacks imagination in your pursuit to learn, in that you choose to not exercise your imagination. You seem too scared to think/talk about situations that's not got some perfectly framed and uncut video-footage associated with it, which limits your ability to be aware of what can/cannot be likely. Unfortunately we dont have that luxury in the real-world and without using your imagination, it's gonna be hard to properly exercise empathy and connect with those on the other side to work on a solution that gets collective buy-in ... some might also call this a functioning democracy ;)

This strategy of stubborn/ignorant denial of underlying issues has also been the US' de-facto strategy for a long time and it clearly isn't working. The world is mortified at what's happening right now, maybe most of all because of the lack of self-awareness around it.



Reading through the last 50 posts here on the tread, I just went from wtf? to WTF?????????

Seriously America, what the actual fuck? I can't even find words to describe what I feel, I think Permalite's post above is stating it pretty well though.

JRPGfan said:
JapaneseGamesLover said:
Police violence is a global issue, but in USA it is more complex due to how police operates.

It really isnt. Most places it rarely happends, and when it does, they are charged for it.
Its mainly a USA issue.

Watch this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_IN4Z1IpOg


Watch from 5mins on.
He talks about how cops in the US, treat you, vs how cops in germany (europe in general) treat you.

Short story:
He got pulled over, and hes thinking "oh no, cops, Im a blank man, here we go again".
The cop is like "I notice your plate is hanging lose, with just 1 screw and is about to fall off"
Hes like "oh sh*t we didnt know, we ll fix it right away sir, no problem"  (no ticket, no warnings nothing)
--> what happend was cop asked him if he wanted help with it? and the cop offered, saying they had time for it. They carry tools around in car.
The law enforcer, helped him get the plate secured, and and wished him a good day and drove off after.

Thats how most cops in europe are.
Vastly differnt than how cops in the US act.

I think that's due to selection and training are much tighter and longer.

For instance here in Luxembourg, you need to pass 5 tests: Fitness, Intelligence, Logic, Psychology and Psychotechnic (stress resistance, ability to stay calm and composed, immunity to monotony) before you can even get admitted to police school, and a final test after 4 years of training before you can even hit the streets. And they have to redo the Psy tests every year, if they fail they get relegated to office work.

By contrast, I know that at least some states have only 3 months of training for their cops with just basic screenings. That just doesn't cut it.

Last edited by Bofferbrauer2 - on 31 May 2020

KLAMarine said:

Trying to enact preventative measures IS a proactive approach.

If you are going to respond to me, respond to my entire post instead of cutting out one sentence and responding to it out of context.



Hiku said:

I can't... 
Shooting at a nurse treating a man bleeding heavily, who picked up a garbage can to shield her from the bullets...?
Is this an anime?



It's like you have to change the entire police/military system to fix this.

It's like they think they're playing some videogames where you shoot the medic first, while in real life a medic is a non-target.



Hiku said:
KiigelHeart said:

Tell me about it. No context whatsoever for some of these cases and apparently US police use pepper sprays that look like those you use to water the flowers. 

Seriously.. Just read some of the stuff that guy is posting and tell me you should take everything and every one of his clips at face value.

Pretty sure the water spray bottles were to try to help her get the residue off her eyes.

Can't see where the incident happened, but after all I've seen these past few days I wouldn't be surprised in the least if she was another collateral damage from their careless actions.

Like opening fire against people for just standing on the porch of their own house:

Looks like unorganised panic,such a quantity of cops and such a bad bad execution and i see none in the wave of cops that is kinda directing things.



Immersiveunreality said:
Hiku said:

Pretty sure the water spray bottles were to try to help her get the residue off her eyes.

Can't see where the incident happened, but after all I've seen these past few days I wouldn't be surprised in the least if she was another collateral damage from their careless actions.

Like opening fire against people for just standing on the porch of their own house:

Looks like unorganised panic,such a quantity of cops and such a bad bad execution and i see none in the wave of cops that is kinda directing things.

It seems to me like the cops have no plan for this crisis and go with "throwing big sticks at the problem until it goes away" approach.



Hiku said:
Immersiveunreality said:

Looks like unorganised panic,such a quantity of cops and such a bad bad execution and i see none in the wave of cops that is kinda directing things.

These ones are apparently military police. You'd think they would be better organized. Even if they had to be called in all of a sudden, I don't know how anyone there thought it was a good idea to do that.

And this is them trying to be on their best behavior.
They know that everyone is watching them extra carefully for brutality and excessive force. And yet they still keep doing it.

Because "support the troops" has been indoctrinated in our heads from the cradle, and if you don't blindly support the troops, you're an enemy of the state and the people. Many people who profess to hate the government and think it is evil blindly worship the two parts of the government whose job it is to kill people who won't do what the government tells them, whether at home (the police) or overseas (the military).

Fun fact: Conservatives in 1970 overwhelmingly approved of the Kent State shooting.



Ka-pi96 said:
tsogud said:

@bolded: Racism is not a difference of opinion.

You're literally a racist or you're not. Which are you? How you will respond to these demonstrations will tell you.

@bolded/italicized: Only if you're white/white-passing. George Floyd didn't have a gun and was cooperating, and was beat up and killed. Trayvon Martin was a teenager walking home, no gun, and shot to death. Eric Garner didn't have a gun, was suffocated to death. Breonna Taylor was laying in her bed when police busted through her door and killed her, she didn't have a gun. There are COUNTLESS instances of unprovoked violence and death perpetuated by the police with no gun on the victim. It's not about guns on the victim, it's about the racism that permeates throughout our country and it manifests itself in corrupt institutions such as the police force and it results in the countless deaths of innocent black and brown individuals. Listen to black people when they speak and educate yourself on the BLM movement before you cast your lot.

It was already an "us vs them (racists/and those that enable them)" situation and has been since the founding of America. 

Perhaps. If you think commiting crimes based on skin colour is justifiable then you're a racist. If you think the violent "protests" are bad, then you might not be a racist (you might be though, being anti-violence and believing people shouldn't commit crimes doesn't prove it one way or the other).

Yeah, there have been far too many times that people who had no right being cops abused their position to hurt or kill people. The individuals responsible should be dealt with through the justice system, but the cops that had nothing to do with it? Don't assume they're racist/bad just because they're cops.

The "them" aren't racists though. Not every cop is racist, some of them yes and that is a problem, but not all of them. Besides, even if every single cop were a racist (which is almost certainly not the case) innocent people are suffering because of these riots. That is not justifiable in any way.

Yeah. You're definitely part of the problem. And you need to listen and learn and come correct before you start talking about things you don't fully understand.

Being a cop is a choice, being black is not. Signing up for corrupt and racist institution and being complicit is a choice, being killed by an officer because your black isn't. Every cop who doesn't stand up and speak is complicit and enables violence. Silence is violence.



 

Immersiveunreality said:
tsogud said:

@bolded: Where in my posts did I say or even hint at that??? Every single protest was nonviolent until police escalated the situation.

And there are numerous accounts and videos of white nationalists and undercover cops vandalizing shops and causing mayhem to muddy the waters and the protesters tried to stop them. These protests are completely valid and were nonviolent until agitators stirred things up.

THE POLICE NEED TO STOP KILLING BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE. IT'S NON-NEGOTIABLE!

ALL ACTS Of VIOLENCE ARE DAMN SHAMEFULL BEING ESCALATED OR NOT,THERE IS NO GOOD EXCUSE.

Destroying property of others and hurting unrelated people will not stop the police from killing black and brown people,those people aren't yours and no ones sacrifices to take no matter the cause.

I'm not excusing the fucking unnecessary violence. And I don't condone looting. But do I give a fuck if Target gets looted? No. Target doesn't even give a fuck themselves.

The Boston Tea Party was considered an act of violence and rebellion, maybe you should denounce America with the same vigor as you're denouncing these protests. Shit, while you're at it, at the start of the civil war there was rightly acts of violence against slave owners, are you going to denounce that. It's funny you won't tho, I wonder why.. I guess racism is "no good excuse"

You're throwing the blame on the people when you should be focusing on the system that brought us to this point and the racism that allowed that oppressive system to stay intact for centuries. Your annoyance and anger are misplaced. People get fed up with having their brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, etc. get killed in cold blood with no accountability placed on the murderer.

And there was a simple way to stop all of this. Arrest and rightly charge ALL the officers present. And radically reform the justice system but no, confronting your own prejudice and racism is too uncomfortable for white America.

There would have been no violence had the police done their job. There would have been no violence had the police not escalated the situation with violence. There would have been no violence had there been justice. There would have been no violence had the US not deployed the military to gas, shoot, tase, bomb, etc. their civilians conducting a peaceful protest. There would have been no violence had our justice system worked for ALL people.

Last edited by tsogud - on 31 May 2020