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Baalzamon said:

They immediately get on the defensive and act like you are taking their entire life away, because they are under the assumption that now a minimum requirement in life is having X Y and Z and being able to do A B and C. Ironically, it is often the very people who are struggling who come up with this arbitrary idea of what is a minimum requirement in life, when really it is much much lower.

You keep bringing up this idea of "minimum requirement in life", and I'm not really sure what you mean. It sounds like you are talking about the money that would be necessary to not be dead, and yes, that number is often fairly low. Even people in poverty spend their money on things that aren't essential to living. However, as many other have brought up, living in poverty is also very much mentally taxing. You have to account for the fact that money which you seem to think is wasted or frivolous, is often being used to help a person's mental health. If someone is living in poverty and buying a video game console and a TV, they are not just frivolously throwing away money on something that isn't a necessity, they are spending my money on something which allows them to escape and relax, which may give them the willpower and sanity to continue working a job that they hate.

Does the fact that an individual spent some money on a console mean that the cost of living isn't too high relative to wages? Of course not. This shouldn't even be a part of the conversation, because under this line of logic, there is no such thing as economic injustice as long as the workers are alive (more or less). Obviously, this is faulty reasoning. As previously stated, income inequality should be examined not through looking at whether a low level worker owns a TV, but whether their pay is what would be expected in a just economy. When a company is making billions of dollars as one of the most successful companies in the world, they probably shouldn't be paying their workers minimum wage as they kill themselves over doing physical labor at an inhuman pace.

Again, income inequality is a symptom of economic injustice, and it is not something that can be defended by saying "Well, the poor own TVs".



zorg1000 said:
Snoopy said:

You said you are working two jobs and having a hard time surviving. If you aren't in training or looking for a better job, it is your fault.

Training costs time and money, if the person is struggling to pay the bills working two jobs than quitting one job in order to attend training while also adding more expenses is not a feasible option.

Take a FAFSA loan and go to a trade field. Congratulations, you just enter the middle class.



Bofferbrauer2 said:
Snoopy said:

Education, Health care, and housing are all heavily controlled by the government. That is why they are so expensive.

If that was even just remotely true, then prices in Europe would be much, much higher for those things, as the governments are way more involved in Europe into these things than in the US. Instead, they are much, much cheaper. Why? Because they are not run by executives which need to turn those facilities a profit and thus nickel and dime anything they can to achieve that.

They are not more expensive because of government, but because they try to use the free market to cover costs the free market can't stem, and need to be subsidized by the government. In Europe, they don't even try to cover the costs with the free market. Education is often free of charge, Healthcare too and there is subsidized housing for those that are unable to afford the market prices, all covered by a small increase in taxes.

And I gladly pay $50 more in taxes per month (It's really just about that much for the middle class and can be even less) if that means I can go to the doctor whenever I need to without fear of being able to afford a doctor's visit and be sure that my children can have the education they want and be able to find a place to live even if I have a hard time finding work for whatever reason.

Edit: Also, if the government would be the reason, the prices wouldn't wary do wildly between hospitals. Speaking of which, here you can compare hospital procedure prices if you need to go there for whatever reason. Might save you a lot of money in the US: https://clearhealthcosts.com

Actually, a lot of those countries that have "free health care" have high taxes and pay more for basic products as a result. Not to mention we pay for a lot of these countries' defense which is wrong on so many levels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SznOanekygY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoVb3DX85LA

Last edited by Snoopy - on 05 January 2020

Snoopy said:
zorg1000 said:

Training costs time and money, if the person is struggling to pay the bills working two jobs than quitting one job in order to attend training while also adding more expenses is not a feasible option.

Take a FAFSA loan and go to a trade field. Congratulations, you just enter the middle class.

Yep it's that easy for everyone.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
Snoopy said:

Take a FAFSA loan and go to a trade field. Congratulations, you just enter the middle class.

Yep it's that easy for everyone.

It is easy, that is why people are able to get 100k loan for a stupid liberal arts degree.



Snoopy said:
zorg1000 said:

Yep it's that easy for everyone.

It is easy, that is why people are able to get 100k loan for a stupid liberal arts degree.

We're talking about people who already have things like rent, utilities, car payments, childcare expenses, health insurance, etc and need income to continue paying for those things so dropping everything and going to school is not feasible, we're not talking about people who are just starting out and have nothing to lose.

Obviously what you propose is a very good option for some people but for others its not.



When the herd loses its way, the shepard must kill the bull that leads them astray.

zorg1000 said:
Snoopy said:

It is easy, that is why people are able to get 100k loan for a stupid liberal arts degree.

We're talking about people who already have things like rent, utilities, car payments, childcare expenses, health insurance, etc and need income to continue paying for those things so dropping everything and going to school is not feasible, we're not talking about people who are just starting out and have nothing to lose.

Obviously what you propose is a very good option for some people but for others its not.

No, it is the best option going forward. You can't keep working two jobs and not expect the worse to come eventually. My advice is something millions have followed before.



Keep in mind if they are in a scenario where it's an old abandoned town, going to college probably won't fix their issue.

They need to move.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Most of the time if you want to end up well off, you've got to give a lot more than you would think you would. This usually doesn't become apparent until you're older though, so if you decided to get married, buy a house, and start a family, etc, while you were quite young and poor/broke to some degree, you now have even more to give up to achieve that goal, or you can learn to live with it.

This tends to be mostly faults of parents. Society has a role to play as well, but a small one. It's not their job to set your path, that's up to your parents and in the end, you. If you made a choice you regret, that's tough luck unfortunately. If you were lied to, tough luck. Parents who didn't care? Tough luck. Life's not fair and is full of wishes and regrets, but trying to put the majority blame on everyone else will just make things harder for yourself. It becomes obvious if you ever get past it.

Coming from a lower middle class family, to being in an upper middle class situation, where I feel wealthier than I am, I know for most people that 'good enough' is doable. You just have to be willing to give up a lot, focus, and always be willing to give that second effort. You also have to properly understand what money and time are worth, and more specifically, worth to you. Eventually you'll get where you're headed, if you've made a reasonable decision that is. Trying to be something you're not will almost never work out. Sometimes being yourself isn't what society demands, and so you don't get rich because of it, and will have to settle for whatever you can get. Many people do something they don't enjoy, but fits them personally, and makes them as wealthy as they would like to be. Everybody has their choices to make.

Now for the straight up poor or medically ill, well that's an unfortunate problem that's almost impossible to solve without screwing up the rest of the system which works pretty good. Which sounds horrible, but every other system that has tried to accomplish this task, no matter how useful it sounded, has never come close to offering everyone as a whole, the much improved life that westerners have. Until the day that system is born, and it surely won't be just a few adjustments to the existing system, people really have little choice but to just deal with what exists.

Life definitely can suck, and will suck at times, period. Personally, the way I looked at life, was that compressing as much suck as possible into portions of my life, allowed me to live more stress free going forward in general, and was better than dealing with a small amount of suck everyday consistently. Some look at it like I lost part of my earlier life, and I look at it like I gained a better life overall. Both are true, but they are just different viewpoints of life based on individual choices. It depends on what you want, and what you're willing to do to get it.



Snoopy said:
tsogud said:

Yeah, it's called "none of your" business. Benefits include a certain amount of privacy.

You said you are working two jobs and having a hard time surviving. If you aren't in training or looking for a better job, it is your fault.

Oh honey who said I was done?? You should've seen the shit gutter I crawled out of. Where I'm at now is better than where I was. With these jobs I still manage to have somewhat of a social life, campaign for Bernie Sanders, and I'm working with several unions to help organize my coworkers to get better working conditions and benefits. The last two things are helping me gain connections I'll need to advance in the future. I'll rest when I'm dead.

The problem is that it shouldn't be this hard to move up economically especially in a country as rich as the US. With so many barriers in the way it's almost impossible for some and downright untouchable for others.

Even though I'm struggling I'm grateful for what I have because I know the situation I came from was much worse (I was homeless) and I know that others have it worse than I do rn. 

My goal isn't to climb the socioeconomical ladder and then just stop and close all the doors behind me. Instead I would like to use my position to make it so that no one would have to go through what I went through. We have a problem in America and simply blaming people is not going to solve it. I'll use whatever little privilege I have to help those that need it.