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Forums - Politics Discussion - Official 2020 US Election: Democratic Party Discussion

jason1637 said:
If Buttigieg wins the early states that could give the momentum to take it.

tsogud said:

Yeah that's very possible but at this point he's only crippling Biden and Warren. As these two coalitions overlap with his, especially Warren's. Buttigieg doesn't have that much broad appeal, being mostly successful with white wealthier voters. He's having the same problem Warren had earlier in the race, he needs to work on appealing to black and Latin voters. Iowa and New Hampshire have a 90%+ white population so that coupled with his aggressive campaigning and dumping loads of money into those two states I'm not surprised he's doing well.

I think the two of you are right about this much: Buttigieg is a candidate we should be talking about here at this point! Him surging to the leading position in Iowa is a development that merits our attention.

I will say though Tsogud that the above actually represents a somewhat dated view of Buttigieg's sources of support as far as I can tell. Check out pages 168 to 170 of the latest national survey here to see what I mean. While his supporters remain lopsidedly white people, most everything else has actually changed since the spring and summer, as you can see. Buttigieg's principal support has traditionally come from young, overwhelmingly very wealthy white men who voted for Hillary Clinton and described themselves as ideologically liberal. Since the last Democratic debate much of that has changed. Today, he appears to be supported most disproportionately by older white women who describe themselves as moderate, and he now has about an equal amount of support from Clinton voters and Trump voters. Also, he now enjoys the same volume of support among low-income voters as he does overall in this poll: 8% of voters making less than $50,000 a year, and 8% of voters overall. That last point is actually very rare. Poorer people are notoriously difficult to interest in politics and vote less often and commit to candidates less often than people from other income groups, and to which end are the most likely to say they're undecided in these surveys, so it's rare for any candidate to be just as popular among working class people as they are overall. Bernie Sanders is the only candidate who consistently enjoys mostly working class support (which isn't to say that he's the most popular candidate among working class people (in this poll, for example, he ranks in third among low-income voters, much as he does overall), but it does say something).

People may recall that I was impressed by Mayor Pete's last debate performance, remarking specifically that he came across as less fake and more fully Midwestern than he had in the past; as someone who seemed to think and talk a lot like typical Midwestern blue collar workers think and talk. It looks like I wasn't alone in that sentiment to judge by this latest data out of Iowa and the evidence of where this new surge of support is coming from! The Mayor Pete I saw in that last debate isn't someone who would be either my first or second choice candidate, personally, but...maybe third choice! Definitely someone I could picture myself voting for easily in the general election; much more easily than before.

You're absolutely right though, Tsogud, his lack of support among black voters specifically (he's at a devastating 0% support among African Americans in linked poll!) is a major weakness for his campaign...if it persists! The thing is though that winning Iowa...well if that indeed happens for him, that would be a very big deal and a game-changer, realistically. The fact is that the Democrats usually do go on to nominate the candidate who wins the Iowa Caucus. Winning that particular contest seems to have an almost magical ability to get people who previously weren't interested to give your campaign another look. I mean I suspect personally he'd make inroads among voters of color broadly if he won the Iowa Caucus, though Joe Biden would likely remain the overall favorite of both black and Latino voters like he currently is and has been for most of this contest. But in a four-way contest with two progressives (Warren and Sanders) and two moderates (Biden and Buttigieg)...well I think that would just tend to lessen Biden's overall chances of victory in the end even in spite of his strong lead among black voters. I don't know who would win the nomination under those circumstances because that would be a truly extraordinary and chaotic situation.

Or he could just prove to be the latest flavor of the month and I'm way over-analyzing all this, who knows?

Last edited by Jaicee - on 13 November 2019

Jaicee said:
Mnementh said:

I think sanctions against Turkey would be adequate. Other than that, the Kurds/SDF and the Assad regime currently brokered an alliance to stop the turkish invasion, which is why the Kurds have allowed Syrian army to enter kurdish controlled areas to secure the borders to Turkey and Turkish controlled areas (in the map visible by the red string for Assads troops in the overtly yellow kurdish controlled areas).

...You realize they didn't want to have to broker that deal, right? And you know what the terms are, right? The Assad regime largely regains control over Northern Syria, to the point that the Kurds have had to even rename all their communities their Arabic names again. Those are the terms. That's why they preferred to work with us!

Also, they're still fighting for their lives! It's really sad to have to say this, but the best ongoing coverage of the situation I'm aware of can be found on the 700 Club, which is a weekdaily program created by Christian conservative activist Pat Robertson. They still show footage of new developments. The footage is important because it makes it very clear how violent the situation still is. Here is the latest of it I can find (relevant part being first five minutes; the rest is other stuff you can and probably should skip). Does that look like things are basically fine to you?

Also, those green areas in the northeast on that map you pointed out? Those are places like what used to known as Kobani; ancestral lands of the Kurdish people. Now under Turkish control. Do you have any idea how death and displacement that green you see represents?

I didn't say it is fine. I just stated the fact, that they made an alliance and that's why you see Assad-control in these areas now.



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Jaicee said:
jason1637 said:
If Buttigieg wins the early states that could give the momentum to take it.

tsogud said:

Yeah that's very possible but at this point he's only crippling Biden and Warren. As these two coalitions overlap with his, especially Warren's. Buttigieg doesn't have that much broad appeal, being mostly successful with white wealthier voters. He's having the same problem Warren had earlier in the race, he needs to work on appealing to black and Latin voters. Iowa and New Hampshire have a 90%+ white population so that coupled with his aggressive campaigning and dumping loads of money into those two states I'm not surprised he's doing well.

I think the two of you are right about this much: Buttigieg is a candidate we should be talking about here at this point! Him surging to the leading position in Iowa is a development that merits our attention.

I will say though Tsogud that the above actually represents a somewhat dated view of Buttigieg's sources of support as far as I can tell. Check out pages 168 to 170 of the latest national survey here to see what I mean. While his supporters remain lopsidedly white people, most everything else has actually changed since the spring and summer, as you can see. Buttigieg's principal support has traditionally come from young, overwhelmingly very wealthy white men who voted for Hillary Clinton and described themselves as ideologically liberal. Since the last Democratic debate much of that has changed. Today, he appears to be supported most disproportionately by older white women who describe themselves as moderate, and he now has about an equal amount of support from Clinton voters and Trump voters. Also, he now enjoys the same volume of support among low-income voters as he does overall in this poll: 8% of voters making less than $50,000 a year, and 8% of voters overall. That last point is actually very rare. Poorer people are notoriously difficult to interest in politics and vote less often and commit to candidates less often than people from other income groups, and to which end are the most likely to say they're undecided in these surveys, so it's rare for any candidate to be just as popular among working class people as they are overall. Bernie Sanders is the only candidate who consistently enjoys mostly working class support (which isn't to say that he's the most popular candidate among working class people (in this poll, for example, he ranks in third among low-income voters, much as he does overall), but it does say something).

People may recall that I was impressed by Mayor Pete's last debate performance, remarking specifically that he came across as less fake and more fully Midwestern than he had in the past; as someone who seemed to think and talk a lot like typical Midwestern blue collar workers think and talk. It looks like I wasn't alone in that sentiment to judge by this latest data out of Iowa and the evidence of where this new surge of support is coming from! The Mayor Pete I saw in that last debate isn't someone who would be either my first or second choice candidate, personally, but...maybe third choice! Definitely someone I could picture myself voting for easily in the general election; much more easily than before.

You're absolutely right though, Tsogud, his lack of support among black voters specifically (he's at a devastating 0% support among African Americans in linked poll!) is a major weakness for his campaign...if it persists! The thing is though that winning Iowa...well if that indeed happens for him, that would be a very big deal and a game-changer, realistically. The fact is that the Democrats usually do go on to nominate the candidate who wins the Iowa Caucus. Winning that particular contest seems to have an almost magical ability to get people who previously weren't interested to give your campaign another look. I mean I suspect personally he'd make inroads among voters of color broadly if he won the Iowa Caucus, though Joe Biden would likely remain the overall favorite of both black and Latino voters like he currently is and has been for most of this contest. But in a four-way contest with two progressives (Warren and Sanders) and two moderates (Biden and Buttigieg)...well I think that would just tend to lessen Biden's overall chances of victory in the end even in spite of his strong lead among black voters. I don't know who would win the nomination under those circumstances because that would be a truly extraordinary and chaotic situation.

Or he could just prove to be the latest flavor of the month and I'm way over-analyzing all this, who knows?

Yeah, I think at this point you do not surge in the polls without a change in the makeup of your voter-base. So it is very likely he won over new demographics.



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Tim Ryan endorsed Joe Biden. Not the most surprising move in my opinion, I always felt like Ryan was running more or less in Bidens lane.
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/13/tim-ryan-endorses-joe-biden-democratic-primary-070405



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Jaicee said:
jason1637 said:
If Buttigieg wins the early states that could give the momentum to take it.

tsogud said:

Yeah that's very possible but at this point he's only crippling Biden and Warren. As these two coalitions overlap with his, especially Warren's. Buttigieg doesn't have that much broad appeal, being mostly successful with white wealthier voters. He's having the same problem Warren had earlier in the race, he needs to work on appealing to black and Latin voters. Iowa and New Hampshire have a 90%+ white population so that coupled with his aggressive campaigning and dumping loads of money into those two states I'm not surprised he's doing well.

I think the two of you are right about this much: Buttigieg is a candidate we should be talking about here at this point! Him surging to the leading position in Iowa is a development that merits our attention.

I will say though Tsogud that the above actually represents a somewhat dated view of Buttigieg's sources of support as far as I can tell. Check out pages 168 to 170 of the latest national survey here to see what I mean. While his supporters remain lopsidedly white people, most everything else has actually changed since the spring and summer, as you can see. Buttigieg's principal support has traditionally come from young, overwhelmingly very wealthy white men who voted for Hillary Clinton and described themselves as ideologically liberal. Since the last Democratic debate much of that has changed. Today, he appears to be supported most disproportionately by older white women who describe themselves as moderate, and he now has about an equal amount of support from Clinton voters and Trump voters. Also, he now enjoys the same volume of support among low-income voters as he does overall in this poll: 8% of voters making less than $50,000 a year, and 8% of voters overall. That last point is actually very rare. Poorer people are notoriously difficult to interest in politics and vote less often and commit to candidates less often than people from other income groups, and to which end are the most likely to say they're undecided in these surveys, so it's rare for any candidate to be just as popular among working class people as they are overall. Bernie Sanders is the only candidate who consistently enjoys mostly working class support (which isn't to say that he's the most popular candidate among working class people (in this poll, for example, he ranks in third among low-income voters, much as he does overall), but it does say something).

People may recall that I was impressed by Mayor Pete's last debate performance, remarking specifically that he came across as less fake and more fully Midwestern than he had in the past; as someone who seemed to think and talk a lot like typical Midwestern blue collar workers think and talk. It looks like I wasn't alone in that sentiment to judge by this latest data out of Iowa and the evidence of where this new surge of support is coming from! The Mayor Pete I saw in that last debate isn't someone who would be either my first or second choice candidate, personally, but...maybe third choice! Definitely someone I could picture myself voting for easily in the general election; much more easily than before.

You're absolutely right though, Tsogud, his lack of support among black voters specifically (he's at a devastating 0% support among African Americans in linked poll!) is a major weakness for his campaign...if it persists! The thing is though that winning Iowa...well if that indeed happens for him, that would be a very big deal and a game-changer, realistically. The fact is that the Democrats usually do go on to nominate the candidate who wins the Iowa Caucus. Winning that particular contest seems to have an almost magical ability to get people who previously weren't interested to give your campaign another look. I mean I suspect personally he'd make inroads among voters of color broadly if he won the Iowa Caucus, though Joe Biden would likely remain the overall favorite of both black and Latino voters like he currently is and has been for most of this contest. But in a four-way contest with two progressives (Warren and Sanders) and two moderates (Biden and Buttigieg)...well I think that would just tend to lessen Biden's overall chances of victory in the end even in spite of his strong lead among black voters. I don't know who would win the nomination under those circumstances because that would be a truly extraordinary and chaotic situation.

Or he could just prove to be the latest flavor of the month and I'm way over-analyzing all this, who knows?

Last early state poll from MC

Latest one I posted earlier.

You could argue that Biden supporters are migrating towards Buttigieg and Sanders supporters are migrating towards Warren. 



Mnementh said:
Tim Ryan endorsed Joe Biden. Not the most surprising move in my opinion, I always felt like Ryan was running more or less in Bidens lane.
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/13/tim-ryan-endorses-joe-biden-democratic-primary-070405

Hmm, with Ryan endorsing Biden, I have been thinking about the other dropped out candidates. Who might they endorse? Well, Gravel has given his endorsement to Bernie Sanders and Tulsi Gabbard. Apart from him and Ryan has no one endorsed someone as far as I know.

So here some random fun guesses:

Richard Ojeda: will support Bernie Sanders again, like in 2016

Kirsten Gillibrand: a bit difficult, but I have the feeling she will fall into camp Warren

Jay Inslee: probably someone with a good climate change plan, I think it might be Sanders

Eric Swalwell: He will hand the torch back to Joe Biden.

John Hickenlooper: I have the feeling - without any reasoning at all - he might support Klobuchar.

Bill de Blasio: Not easy to guess, but I think he will go into Warrens camp.

Beto O'Rourke: Really a wildcard. He could endorse pretty much anyone. I just say *throws dice* Kamala Harris.

What are your guesses?



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Mnementh said:
Mnementh said:
Tim Ryan endorsed Joe Biden. Not the most surprising move in my opinion, I always felt like Ryan was running more or less in Bidens lane.
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/13/tim-ryan-endorses-joe-biden-democratic-primary-070405

Hmm, with Ryan endorsing Biden, I have been thinking about the other dropped out candidates. Who might they endorse? Well, Gravel has given his endorsement to Bernie Sanders and Tulsi Gabbard. Apart from him and Ryan has no one endorsed someone as far as I know.

So here some random fun guesses:

Richard Ojeda: will support Bernie Sanders again, like in 2016

Kirsten Gillibrand: a bit difficult, but I have the feeling she will fall into camp Warren

Jay Inslee: probably someone with a good climate change plan, I think it might be Sanders

Eric Swalwell: He will hand the torch back to Joe Biden.

John Hickenlooper: I have the feeling - without any reasoning at all - he might support Klobuchar.

Bill de Blasio: Not easy to guess, but I think he will go into Warrens camp.

Beto O'Rourke: Really a wildcard. He could endorse pretty much anyone. I just say *throws dice* Kamala Harris.

What are your guesses?

My guess is that not one of them that have dropped out(besides ojeda) that hasn't endorsed already will endorse Bernie. The smart ones will wait and see and endorse after the primary is decided. Endorsing the anti-establishment candidate as an establishment figure is death to their careers and that's all they'll be thinking about.



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uran10 said:
Mnementh said:

Hmm, with Ryan endorsing Biden, I have been thinking about the other dropped out candidates. Who might they endorse? Well, Gravel has given his endorsement to Bernie Sanders and Tulsi Gabbard. Apart from him and Ryan has no one endorsed someone as far as I know.

So here some random fun guesses:

Richard Ojeda: will support Bernie Sanders again, like in 2016

Kirsten Gillibrand: a bit difficult, but I have the feeling she will fall into camp Warren

Jay Inslee: probably someone with a good climate change plan, I think it might be Sanders

Eric Swalwell: He will hand the torch back to Joe Biden.

John Hickenlooper: I have the feeling - without any reasoning at all - he might support Klobuchar.

Bill de Blasio: Not easy to guess, but I think he will go into Warrens camp.

Beto O'Rourke: Really a wildcard. He could endorse pretty much anyone. I just say *throws dice* Kamala Harris.

What are your guesses?

My guess is that not one of them that have dropped out(besides ojeda) that hasn't endorsed already will endorse Bernie. The smart ones will wait and see and endorse after the primary is decided. Endorsing the anti-establishment candidate as an establishment figure is death to their careers and that's all they'll be thinking about.

Well, I guess Inslee can, considering that the climate change is already his raison d'être. Gillibrand and Harris also could get away supporting Warren by just pointing out they are supporting fellow women. But the rest will probably support either Biden or Buttigieg.



jason1637 said:

Last early state poll from MC

Latest one I posted earlier.

You could argue that Biden supporters are migrating towards Buttigieg and Sanders supporters are migrating towards Warren. 

I agree with you on Pete Buttigieg for sure. I mean if you look at the demographic breakdown of his supporters, you'll find that, in some crucial respects, they have more in common with Joe Biden's supporters than those of anyone else. Namely, they're predominantly self-described moderate voters who are over the age of 45. There's only other major candidate with that sort an age skew in terms of support, and that other candidate just happens to be losing some ground at the same time that Mayor Pete is ascending. Hard to write that off as coincidence.

I think there's also been some competition for younger voters between Warren and Sanders going on for sure, although Sanders is clearly winning that battle overall and Warren isn't so dependent on a single generation. I wouldn't say that the last month has been good to Warren in the polling average though. She needs another debate. On the fortunate side for her though, another one is now less than a week away.