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NightlyPoe said:
Scoobes said:

I didn't say the backstop, I said May's red lines were not compatible with the GFA. At present the only way to honour the GFA is to stay in the customs union and the single market. May's red lines mean we can't do either and no one has come up with a realistic alternative so far. She invented the backstop as the only legal method to ensure we don't end up in a situation where we renege on our commitments to the GFA. Once you take out the bits that you consider "protecting our sovereignty", we leave ourselves with 2 options: stay in the customs union and single market or renege on our legal commitments. Any potential alternatives won't exist in a short-medium time frame and would probably require R&D before a genuine technological solution can be found. This is why I place the blame at May and her government.

Remember that May is the one that created the backstop so trying to remove it is already an international humiliation.

So, what is your alternative? Because so far it just sounds like you're happy to renege on the GFA in 0-2 years time.

This is partly what I meant by 'how much sovereignty are you willing to give up?' Are you willing to lower food safety standards or to increase the level of privatization in our health service for a trade deal with the US. Or to give the US the opportunity to veto future trade deals? 

Larger trading blocks and larger Countries are going to be demanding a lot of concessions before they are willing to deal and they're going to be bigger whilst still having all their current trade deals intact. They're going to be negotiating from a position of strength as we'll look isolated. India for instance have already said that any future trade deal would require the UK opening more space for Indians to migrate to the UK.

In any negotiation there will be give and take. We will have to give up something which is why your sovereignty claims when dealing with the Irish border situation are going to come up in other areas when we try to strike trade deals outside the EU.

And what evidence do you have that these claims are sensationalised? Also, how long do you think trade deals take to strike on average?

Ah, I see.  So we are talking about two different things.  To me May's red lines are simply a negotiating stance, so they could be moved.  Indeed, they already have.

Now I understand what you really meant.

Thing is, they didn't move anything substantially. And she can't move them without facing massive backlash within her own party. But I let CGP Grey explain, I think that's going to be clearer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Yv24cM2os

The UK can only pick 2 out of the 3 options, but wants all 3. But another Video explains some of the details why no deal is coming forth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E

Here you can see all the red lines, which makes only no deal possible - but that breaks the GFA. The EU figured that out early on, as the slide is from December 2017, but still the UK doesn't budge on any of the issues.



NightlyPoe said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Now I understand what you really meant.

Thing is, they didn't move anything substantially. And she can't move them without facing massive backlash within her own party. But I let CGP Grey explain, I think that's going to be clearer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Yv24cM2os

The UK can only pick 2 out of the 3 options, but wants all 3. But another Video explains some of the details why no deal is coming forth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agZ0xISi40E

Here you can see all the red lines, which makes only no deal possible - but that breaks the GFA. The EU figured that out early on, as the slide is from December 2017, but still the UK doesn't budge on any of the issues.

For the record, I make it a principle to never respond to anyone who posts a YouTube video and do not watch them.  If you wish to make a point, you need to make it for yourself.

You might want to consider an exception for this one. CGP Grey is great, you should check out his other videos too.



 

Again, this is a starting point of trade negotiations.  There seems to be an odd assumption that whatever another country wants, the UK must accept.  Whether it be chlorinated chickens (let us be honest, that's more about protectionism than food safety), giving the US a veto, or India demanding more immigration.  Where did this come from as it's also entangled your thoughts on negotiations with the EU as well.

You say that in any negotiation there will be give and take but where's the take?

Beg to disagree. I know you don't want to watch videos, but here you are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAMpJ9Yr56Y

It details the differences of food standards between the UK (as part of the EU) and the US.

Specifically, it goes on about the much higher amounts of food poisoning in the US (and no death from it in the UK, but 450 in the US in just a year), livestock standards (they are exempted from animal cruelty standards in most states, so farmers can basically do whatever they want with them, like having them spend their entire life in a little box, unable to even turn around or stand up straight), the fact that Salmonella survives the chlorinating process anyway and the fact that the Trump administration pressures the UK to accept chlorinated chicken (and hormone injected beef) despite 72% of the UK public being against it.



LurkerJ said:
Skeeuk said:

most people that voted leave did do because of thier prejudices against foreign looking people, then you have another camp that genuinly feel life will be better without EU. if final decism isnt made then it has to be put to a final vote on what type of deal the withdrawal will mean and or remain in EU

knuckle draggers dont realise that leaving the EU and so called going it alone they will have to trade upto the commenwealth countries and upcoming global powers which in turn them countries will demand rights for workers to settle in the uk etc

i can imagine many swaths of pakistani, indian, chineese and jamaican workers traveling to the uk en masse

The country (and Europe in general) are going back to the dark ages, and in my opinion, it's almost too late to turn back the wheel. It's tragically funny watching the left clashing with the people they welcome so much:


View on YouTube


View on YouTube

Bolded: That's a huge claim and a very broad generalization. You a got source to back up your claim? 



Intel Core i7 8700K | 32 GB DDR 4 PC 3200 | ROG STRIX Z370-F Gaming | RTX 3090 FE| Crappy Monitor| HTC Vive Pro :3

CNN reported that all 8 alternatives proposals were voted down yesterday
In addition to the one May had put up.

So the question must be asked, how are they gonna come up with anything if there is no consistency among proposals?

Everyone seems to want something different. They should postpone Brexit until people can come to an agreement on some level.



CosmicSex said:
CNN reported that all 8 alternatives proposals were voted down yesterday
In addition to the one May had put up.

So the question must be asked, how are they gonna come up with anything if there is no consistency among proposals?

Everyone seems to want something different. They should postpone Brexit until people can come to an agreement on some level.

Postponing Brexit isn't up to them. It's up to the EU countries, who all have to unanimously approve an extension. The only thing the UK has full control over is a complete cancellation of Brexit. The need to either give up and pick one of the clear options (May's Deal/No Deal) which they repeatedly have voted against very heavily, or cancel Brexit until they can figure out what they want to do, but if they do that, they'll definitely be voted out in favor of UKIP. They've royally screwed themselves. The only way the EU will agree to give them an extension is if they pass May's deal, but that's only a short extension. To get a long extension, they'd have to actually agree on a plan by the deadline, and then the extension will be only as long as necessary to implement the plan.



HylianSwordsman said:
CosmicSex said:
CNN reported that all 8 alternatives proposals were voted down yesterday
In addition to the one May had put up.

So the question must be asked, how are they gonna come up with anything if there is no consistency among proposals?

Everyone seems to want something different. They should postpone Brexit until people can come to an agreement on some level.

Postponing Brexit isn't up to them. It's up to the EU countries, who all have to unanimously approve an extension. The only thing the UK has full control over is a complete cancellation of Brexit. The need to either give up and pick one of the clear options (May's Deal/No Deal) which they repeatedly have voted against very heavily, or cancel Brexit until they can figure out what they want to do, but if they do that, they'll definitely be voted out in favor of UKIP. They've royally screwed themselves. The only way the EU will agree to give them an extension is if they pass May's deal, but that's only a short extension. To get a long extension, they'd have to actually agree on a plan by the deadline, and then the extension will be only as long as necessary to implement the plan.

And Europeans are getting more and more wary of the situation, basically wanting to yell: "Get on with it!" to them.

In fact, now that the mood in the UK is tipping more and more to stay in the EU, Europeans more and more feel like "you voted to leave, now go, dammit!"

However, the politicians are probably still willing to give the UK in the shadow of doubt another chance to decide, but they also are growing wary.



Theresa May's Brexit deal is like that team who keep getting promoted to the top league only to be swiftly relegated.



This is beautiful. Brexit has turned into everything I wanted it to.

No-one actually gives that much of a fuck about the EU but it's exposing everything.

The only thing that's left is for the Queen to step in and that's looking more and more likely if a GE takes place.

Lib Dems are destroyed. UKIP could be dead now too but they're getting a huge rebound and they're back with a new anti-Islam twist (well done remoaners). Lab and Con are both splintering and declining in the polls at the same time.

MPs are being threatened and called traitors and instead of getting sympathy they're being told that they ARE traitors (those replies haha).



The Labour Party has a Commy in charge and the most stable and successful political party in European history is slowly crumbling. All because of what amounts to little more than a 5% change in the average tax rate for most people.



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Don't Play Stationary 4 ever. Switch!

Pyro as Bill said:

This is beautiful. Brexit has turned into everything I wanted it to.

No-one actually gives that much of a fuck about the EU but it's exposing everything.

The only thing that's left is for the Queen to step in and that's looking more and more likely if a GE takes place.

Lib Dems are destroyed. UKIP could be dead now too but they're getting a huge rebound and they're back with a new anti-Islam twist (well done remoaners). Lab and Con are both splintering and declining in the polls at the same time.

MPs are being threatened and called traitors and instead of getting sympathy they're being told that they ARE traitors (those replies haha).



The Labour Party has a Commy in charge and the most stable and successful political party in European history is slowly crumbling. All because of what amounts to little more than a 5% change in the average tax rate for most people.

How are the LibDems destroyed? Did I miss something, what happened to them?

I would have said both the Tories and Labour are destroyed by now, as both have rendered themselves pretty much unelectable with their bickering and splintering. But yeah, looks like you have more or less the same opinion here. However, both are still by far the largest parties in the UK according to the recent polls, totaling over 75% of the votes between the 2.

Not sure about the UKIP, though, but we will see. By the polls, it looks like they are gaining more voters than last election for sure, but will it be enough to make a difference? Also, that anti-Islam "twist" is hardly new to them.

In any case, I'd say we'll see the situation in a bit over a month during the local elections in England and NI. Speaking of which, can somebody explain me why not every council in England is getting an election at that time?

@bolded, yeah, that's why the petition to abolish article 50 and thus Brexit has reached 6M subscribers. Or that there was a March with over a million supporters for a people's vote a week ago (and a pitiful 200 counterprotesters organised by Farage).